Friday, October 3, 2008

Greeks

Are the Greeks "still" Indo-European? Were they ever?

Modern Greeks do not descend predominantly from Indo-Europeans. It is silly to talk about whether or not the Greeks are "any longer" Indo-European, since the people living within the geographic boundaries of Greece were at no time predominantly Indo-European by ancestry. However, the aristocracy of classical Greece would indeed have derived from Indo-Europeans. John V. Day notes that:

Indo-Europeans often seem to have been small minorities in the countries they penetrated: the Celtic warrior-class in Ireland; the Roman patricians; the few Homeric heroes and the so-called "pure Greeks" of later years; and the Aryans battling against the many natives in India.

According to Peterson, the Greek aristocracy were seperated by "caste-like stratification . . . from the freemen and slave classes among whom the genetic influence of the autochthonous 'Pelasgian' population may have predominated" (Peterson 1974).

Also keep in mind, Greeks have 28% Near Eastern HG9 and 28% North African HG21. Much of this ancestry may date from the Neolithic, but it is curious that RM doesn't interpret this data to mean Greeks are 56% "Hamito-Semitic" and therefore very much less than "pure" European. As Day (2002) says: "Genetically, Greek and Yugoslav populations are among the least typically 'European.'"

Update: In fact, new research is suggesting that much of the "Neolithic" ancestry in Greece represents gene flow from after the Neolithic.

Demosthenes (c. 386-322 B.C.) "distinguished orator and Athenian patriot of the wealthy landowning Attic deme of Paeania."

Alkaios (c. 620-595 B.C.) "a member of the Aeolic nobility."

Xenophon (c. 430-354 B.C.) "the member of a minor aristocratic Athenian family."

Thucydides (c. 460-400 B.C.), "Historian and general of noble Attic blood on his father's side and aristocratic Thracian blood through his mother."

Euripides (c. 480-406 B.C.) "scion of a Salamis landowning family." Euripides "had a fair and freckled complexion."

Socrates (c. 469-399 B.C.) Not a member of the aristocracy. Stone cutter son of a sculptor and a midwife. Middle class. Alpine racial type.

Greek Aristoi

Members of aristocratic families are vastly overrepresented among notable Greeks of the classical period. Thus, when discussing the racial type of ancient "Greeks", it is important to consider the racial type of the aristocracy.

From the point of view of physical anthropology the ethnic complexity of Greek society during the first millennium B.C. prohibits any attempt at a generalized statement of physical type based upon statistical averages of data derived from the available skeletal material. Substantial caste-like stratification, accompanied by relatively strict principles of caste endogamy separated the Indo-European-derived Eupatrids from the freemen and slave classes among whom the genetic influence of the autochthonous 'Pelasgian' population may have predominated. (Peterson 1974)

Peterson notes that IE languages eventually came to be spoken by racially and genetically diverse peoples, but he suggests:

In the course of some five or six millennia of expansion and conquest, an expanding IE upper caste may undoubtedly have preserved a high degree of genetic continuity (Pearson, 1974), while simply superimposing itself upon the autochthonous populations. Those who brought Indo-European speech into the newly-colonized territories became a ruling warrior nobility, as testified by the connotation 'noble' for arya in India and Persia, ariothez, in Greece (hence our 'aristocracy') and aire among the Celtic peoples. Indeed, the evidence-indicates that to a greater or lesser extent the invading arya, art, or aire maintained strict principles of endogamy in the choice of their official wives, and although in many areas they appear to have made a disproportionately high contribution to the gene pool of the indigenous population through the practice of keeping large numbers of concubines, they differed from the Uralic and Semitic peoples in their refusal to grant the illegitimate offspring of such marriages the social status of the father. Thus so far as legitimate offspring were concerned, in aristocratic Greek society, as in most early historic I.E. societies, the strict endogamy of the conquering classes was evidenced by the admission that 'we choose our wives like we choose our horses: by the lengths of their pedigrees' — and the high respect in which the Greeks held their horses is well known!

According to Peterson:

The fact that the immigrant Indo-Europeans had a clear-cut conception of what they regarded as their own distinctive and characteristic physiognomy — which would have been preserved and even accentuated by close inbreeding — is amply evidenced by Greek literature. Thus in the Odyssey (XII, 222) we undersland that the disguised Athena was described as being 'delicate ol countenance such as are the sons of kings', whereas in the Iliad (II, 216) Thersites, of autochthonous origin, is described as 'ill-formed and warped of head'. . . .

Coon mentions:

Villains, comical characters, satyrs, centaurs, giants, and all unpleasant people and those not to be admired, are often shown in sculpture and in vase painting as broad-faced, snub-nosed, and heavily bearded. Socrates, who belonged to this type, was maliciously compared to a satyr. This type may still be found its Greece, and is an ordinary Alpine. In the early skeletal, remains it is represented by some of the brachycephalic crania.

Socrates, son of a sculptor and a midwife, was not an aristocrat. The fact that his physical type was scorned by the aristocracy suggests that aristocrats were not Alpines, certainly not unmixed Alpines. Coon also notes that "The racial type to which Socrates belonged [a racial type not favored by the Indo-European elite] is today the most important" racial type in Greece.

Peterson suggests:

. . . as a potential supplement to the study of the incomplete skeletal remains, . . . the possible utility of a detailed analysis of the surviving Greek portraits, busts, herms and sculptures of all kinds, classified according to the historically verifiable tribal and family background of the individual portrayed. Such a classification becomes important in view of the generally accepted view that throughout the first millennium B.C., the population of the Aegean remained subdivided into a number of genetic isolates, instead of representing a simple homogenous Mendelian population.

The Greeks shown above and right, descendants of ancient aristocratic families, illustrate Indo-European features.

Needless to say, today you're more likely to see people who resemble the above in England or Sweden than in Greece. Coon affirms:

. . . one is impressed, after looking at the portrait busts of Athenians, and the clay masks of Spartans, with their resemblance to present-day western Europeans. This resemblance becomes less marked in the art of the Byzantines, however, where modern near Eastern faces are more frequent; but the Byzantines lived mostly outside of Greece.

Peterson reports that by "the period of Roman domination . . . the old god-descended aristoi were virtually extinct".

Angel (1945) confirms the presence of Nordic-Iranian types among the Iron age invaders of Greece, and their continuation as a minority in Athens into Classical times. His data also suggest the presence of "Corded Nordic and Nordic-Alpine" types among the earlier, Bronze age invaders, and Angel mentions a Late Helladic Nordic-Iranian Mycenaean Athenian, who "without much doubt . . . was a warrior". Nordic-Iranian types were present in Athens even into Late Hellenistic times.

Demosthenes (pictured above) inherited 84,000 drachmai from his father, whose "estate gives us some idea of the property of the top 300 citizens in the fourth century" (Webster 1973, 44). By contrast, "ninety per cent of the citizens were in the income range 180-480 drachmai", and "citizens, metics, and slaves worked side by side in the silver mines and were paid the same wage" (46).

The lower strata of citizens likely would have been of autochthonous (rather than Indo-European) origin. 317 BC census figures for Athens show 12,000 citizens in lowest class (thetes), 8,000 in the middle (hoplite) class, and 1,000 in the top two classes. The upper classes were greatly outnumbered by their fellow citizens, to say nothing of slaves and metics.

The aristocracy were a small, isolated segment of the population, and many aristocratic families practiced cremation "well into the Classical period" (Peterson 1974), severely limiting the usefulness of skeletal evidence in discussing the racial type of the aristocracy. But the evidence mentioned above is consistent with the idea that Nordic types would have been greatly overrepresented in the aristocracy, just as portraits suggest they were.

Incidentally, the practice of cremation is itself a clue.

. . . cremation . . . was associated with pastoral-nomadic Nordic populations, for whom the soul might roam free in death as in life. Thus, the introduction of cremation into Greece was taken by many scholars as indicating the arrival of a new Nordic and nomadic population . . . (Hall 1997, 116)

Whether cremation was introduced by some unknown, generalized "'northern elements'", or specifically by "Dorian descendants of the cremation-practising Urnfield populations who occupied Illyria and Bosnia in the Late Bronze Age" (Hall 1997, 116-117), it is clear that cremation as practiced by the Greek aristocracy had its origin among Nordics.

Mosaics from Pella, Macedonia (4th c. BC), illustrating Hellenic pigmentation. Coon observes that "blondism among the Greeks is mostly Nordic in origin". Original Hellenic features may have persisted longer in Macedonia than in other parts of the Greek world, but there is reason to believe such features would have been largely preserved throughout the Greek aristocracy into relatively late times.

Pigmentation

As for pigmentation, Coon (1939) tells us:

Greek literature and Greek art furnish an abundance of evidence as to the pigmentation and the characteristic facial features of the ancient inhabitants of Hellas. The Olympian gods, ancestors of the semi-heroes, were for the most part blond, with ivory shins and golden hair. Athene was gray eyed. Poseidon, however, was black haired [Note: Poseidon was derived from a pre-IE Mediterranean deity]. These gods were little different if we may believe Homer, from their descendants the heroes, most of whom were white limbed and golden haired.
Day (2002) finds that:
Useful information about real rather than fictional Greeks comes from Polemon, the second most important Greek writer on physiognomy, who wrote as late as the second century A.D. Polemon explains that "the pure Greek" of his time has fair skin and red hair, and resembles the man inclined to literature and philosophy, who has fair skin and fairish hair. Polemon may have drawn these ideas from Pseudo-Aristotle, the most important Greek physiognomist, who in his third century B.C. Physiognomica declares that the most perfect male type is the lion with its fair mane.

According to Angel, "Nordic-Iranians were tall and muscular, strong-necked, and probably included tawny-haired blue- or green-eyed blonds as well as brunets." Angel also mentions the "noteworthy resemblances" of this type "to Anglo-Saxons" and the partial "northwestern relations of this Greek type".

Modern Greeks are overwhelmingly dark-haired and rarely fair-skinned.

Have the Greeks changed since antiquity?

Of course. The old aristocracy, responsible for much of the greatness of ancient Greece, certainly no longer exists. That, in itself, is a big enough change. Even the peasants have changed, though the exact degree to which the Greek goatherd of today is descended from the ancient Greek goatherd is an open question.

Everyone knows about the major Slavic and Albanian influxes into Greece. As Paul Theroux puts it:

The Greeks had not taken very much interest in their past until Europeans became enthusiastic discoverers and diggers of their ruins. And why should they have cared? The Greeks were not Greek, but rather the illiterate descendants of Slavs and Albanian fishermen, who spoke a debased Greek dialect and had little interest in the broken columns and temples except as places to graze their sheep. (Pillars of Hercules, 315-316)

Given the movement of large numbers of Greeks into Anatolia during the Byzantine era, and the movements of Albanians and Slavs into Greece, it is always possible that a given Turk has as much or more classical Greek ancestry as a given modern Greek. And, there is always the strong possibility of a Turkic contribution to the Greek gene pool.

There has been gene flow into Greece from from Negroids and Mongoloids (see below), the extent of which is not easy to quantify at this time. However, absorption of genes from the Near East and North Africa likely happened on a much larger scale than the absorption of non-Caucasoid genes; and this recent non-European Caucasoid admixture may be more significant than non-Caucasoid admixture when discussing changes in the racial character of the Greek nation. Richards et al. (2002) find a "very high frequency (~20%) of recent gene flow" in eastern Mediterranean Europe.

Ancient vs. Modern: Dienekes Pontikos thinks these images are somehow equivalent. In fact, he's implied he believes the ancient Greek depicted here is "swarthier" than the modern "Greek". Personally, I don't consider a sun tan to be the same thing as obvious non-European ancestry.

The Near Easterners form a clear group, distinct from Europeans. The central and eastern Mediterranean populations of Europe, along with southeastern Europe, although positioned more closely to the other European populations, also show affinities with the Near East, but western Mediterranean Europe clusters with central and northern Europe. . . .

The southeast-northwest clines in classical marker frequencies have been interpreted, by comparison with radiocarbon evidence, as representing a substantial demic diffusion of Near Eastern farming communities into Europe in the early Neolithic period (Sokal et al. 1991; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). However, the pattern in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies that we see here indicates similarity between Europeans and Near Easterners primarily in southeastern Europe and along the Mediterranean, whereas archaeological evidence would point to the main expansion of agriculture being into central Europe (Bogucki 2000; Price 2000). Thus, it seems rather unlikely that the pattern in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies could have been generated mainly by a Neolithic expansion. . . .

The second PC of Y chromosome variation accounts for 26% of the variation, and it clusters most European regions at one pole while grouping the Near East at the other, with eastern Mediterranean and central Mediterranean Europe between the two poles. The main contributors to the gradients are haplogroups E and J (formerly haplogroups 21 and 9, both of which are frequent in the Near East) and, again, R* and N3 (both of which are more frequent in Europe). This points to gene flow from the Near East, as suggested by both Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) and Semino et al. (2000). Haplogroup J in Europe is interpreted more specifically by Semino et al. (2000) as the result of Neolithic dispersal. Curiously, however, haplogroups E and J are again most frequent along the Mediterranean coastline and rapidly dwindle as one moves into central Europe, where the archaeological record tells us the main farming expansion took place.

Founder analysis of mtDNA in Europe (Richards et al. 2000) can suggest a possible explanation for this pattern: it might be due, at least in part, to substantial recent (post-Neolithic) gene flow, rather than solely to Neolithic expansion. This mtDNA founder analysis, based on the comparison of matching sequence types (within haplogroups) between Europe and the Near East, suggested that there is no one-to-one correlation between migrations and major clades. The analysis for eastern Mediterranean Europe indicated a very high frequency (~20%) of recent gene flow, as compared with only ~10% Neolithic input. . . .

Angel (1945) sees evidence of an immigration trend, continuing from Roman times through Byzantine times and later, that brought Mediterranean, Eastern Alpine, and Armenoid elements [from the Near East, one presumes] by sea, and [Slavic speaking, in Byzantine times] Alpine and Dinaric elements from the north. Angel also believes that in Classical times, Athens absorbed a large population of slaves and metics.

Obviously, the Greek gene pool has received a great deal of outside input, which makes sense, based on Greece's location and history. Angel tries to stress the continuity of the Athenian people, but it's hard to see what's so continuous about an originally Mediterranean population which today is brachycephalic and largely Alpine, and in which an important minority racial element of earlier times has essentially disappeared. It should be understood that when Angel speaks of "continuity", he merely means that racial change in Greece is gradual, rather than sharp. In this sense, one could just as easily stress the "racial continuity" of Arabs as they gradually absorbed large numbers of sub-Saharan slaves.

Pete Sampras. So, have the Greeks "changed since antiquity"? You tell me. (Note that while Sampras is apparently a quarter Jewish, I am assured by certain Greeks that he is entirely modern Greek in appearance.)

Aris Poulianos

Grecocentric anthropologist Aris Poulianos makes stronger claims than Angel about Greek "continuity", insisting on "the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years)." Poulianos's work is discredited by statements such as:

. . . continuity is . . . proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences . . .

As Angel's work shows -- and as common sense dictates -- the racial composition of Greece has changed quite markedly over time; and the genetic evidence proves that significant Neolithic and later gene flow has occured in Greece. If Poulianos is unable to detect differences between ancient and modern Greeks, his techniques are flawed.

Poulianos's credibility is further undermined by his bizarre assertions concerning linguistics.

We must indirectly admit that [the Sarakatsanees] also have the most ancient language, because their ancestors always spoke..and spoke only Greek for the last tenths of thousand years..50, 60, 70, perhaps even 100. On the contrary, the Indoeuropean theory only covers the last four thousand years. But even before the Indoeuropeans, didn't the inhabitants of this country speak for so many thousands of years? Aren't the living Sarakatsanees the proof today?

Needless to say, no mainstream Western scholar would support Poulianos's linguistic theories. However, Poulianos's work was warmly received in the Soviet Union. This is unsurprising: Poulianos did his doctoral dissertation at the University of Moscow; and with his fantasies of Greek-speaking Neanderthals, Poulianos is simply taking Soviet-style theories of ethnogenesis to their ridiculous extreme. In the final analysis, Poulianos is a crank, of little interest to anyone but Greek nationalists and Stalinist archaeologists.

A page promoting The Origin of the Greeks is able to report that hundreds of Eastern bloc state scientists "fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris. Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research", but the only Western scientist they can cite as having supported him is J.L. Angel. While it's true that Angel penned a perhaps under-critical review of Poulianos's book in AJPA, this friend of Poulianos nevertheless found The Origin of the Hellenes to be an "unsystematic" work, which omits half the relevant literature, "tends to overvalue speculations based on small samples", and leaves "a number of loose ends". On a positive note, Angel believes Poulianos's use of slang and "everyday Greek" instead of "stuffy" scientific language "should help to popularize anthropology in Greece, in spite of three or four quotations from Stalin, Marx, and Engels."

Incidentally, one of Poulianos's chief aims seems to have been to refute Fallmerayer's theory that modern Greeks are mostly descended from Slavs and Albanians. However:

The same study indicated that the Albanian-speaking, Slav-speaking (Monte Negro included) as well as Valaches (Vlachi) of the greater Macedonian region are in their majority also autochthonous and therefore the influences from abroad mainly concerns the adoption of the chronologically younger languages, which are in use today.

If this is the case, then it seems Poulianos can prove nothing about the degree to which Byzantine-era Slavic-speakers contributed to the modern Greek population. Whether or not these Slavic-speakers had predominantly autochthonous origins in the Balkans is irrelevant. They were still not the same people as the ancient Greeks. As well, looking at averages for the population as a whole obscures the fact that a disproportionate share of Greek contributions came from a numerically unimportant, genetically isolated, and racially distinct minority.

The source of classical Greek achievement

Angel mentions "Blegen's model of fusion of diverse material, social, and even psychological elements to form the culture of Classical Athens". Blegen is correct that Athenian cultural achievement owed something to the fusion of cultures. But, the key elements that seperated Greek thought and achievement from those of earlier civilizations originated with the Indo-Europeans:

While Egyptians and Babylonians collected a great deal of information about mathematics and astronomy and practiced impressive engineering on a grand scale, their "sciences" never had a really scientific basis. Their knowledge existed either as the lore collected by the priests or as the products of practical trial-and-error. Only the Indo-European Greeks actually systematized scientific and mathematical knowledge, and they were able to construct it into a system because the system itself was their concept of a Cosmic Order in which all events and phenomena were related through causality and its inexorable linkages of one event and phenomenon to another. . . .

"It is no accident," wrote V. Gordon Childe, "that the first great advances towards abstract natural science were made by the Aryan Greeks and the Hindus, not by the Babylonians or the Egyptians, despite their great material resources and their surprising progress in techniques – in astronomical observation for example. . . ." (Clark 1996)

Inspired by Blegen's model of the fusion of cultures, Angel looks to blending of racial types as "one of the real and probably indispensable little factors which help produce a great people and which underlie the whole history of civilization." What this theory ignores is the major role played by the endogamous aristocracy in Greek achievement. Since Classical times, Greece has received even more outside genetic input and has become even more blended. If this is the key to greatness, why has Greece been going downhill since the Classical age?

Murphy (1941) takes a similar view to Angel's, but acknowledges another factor:

. . . which can be deduced from Darwin's work in general and which later researches have brought more into the light. It appears that the human racial crossings which produce the most marked instances of efflorescence in genius and ability, take place among the varieties which are comparatively akin to each other and that, on the contrary, where the varieties which hybridize are distant from each other in type . . . there is a deficiency in the production of superior ability.

Murphy mentions "conquering hordes . . . from the Eurasian steppes" settling the Fertile Crescent and "creating a highly developed civilization"; and he mentions a process "'seen in ancient Greece or the Florentine Renaissance; first a migration of peoples (immigration of strong, warlike races), then, for centuries, a relative intellectual calm, and, finally, a period of abundant genius.'" It's not clear why those events should be explained in terms of blending of racial types, rather than in say, the blending of cultures, the imposition of important elements of the invading cultures on the new lands, or the acquisition by the "warlike races" of resources which allow them to fulfill their innate potential. Murphy does suggest that "mingling of the successive waves of immigrants" may be more important than "the crossing of the invading people with aborigines".

It would certainly seem that the composition of the immigrants is of key importance, regardless of whether or not "hybrid vigor" plays some role. These periods of greatness were invariably followed by periods of decline or mediocrity, accompanied by continuing or increased blending of racial elements. Wave after wave of Alpines and Mediterraneans continued to arrive in Greece from Roman times onward. But blending with these new arrivals never produced an "efflorescence". W.D. Hamilton's (1975) theory is preferrable to that of Angel:

The incursions of barbaric pastoralists seem to do civilizations less harm in the long run than one might expect. Indeed, two dark ages and renaissances in Europe suggest a recurring pattern in which a renaissance follows an incursion by about 800 years. It may even be suggested that certain genes or traditions of pastoralists revitalize the conquered people with an ingredient of progress which tends to die out in a large panmictic population for the reasons already discussed. I have in mind altruism itself, or the part of the altruism which is perhaps better described as self-sacrificial daring. By the time of the renaissance it may be that the mixing of genes and cultures (or of cultures alone if these are the only vehicles, which I doubt) has continued long enough to bring the old mercantile thoughtfulness and the infused daring into conjunction in a few individuals who then find courage for all kinds of inventive innovation against the resistance of established thought and practice. Often, however, the cost in fitness of such altruism and sublimated pugnacity to the individuals concerned is by no means metaphorical, and the benefits to fitness, such as they are, go to a mass of individuals whose genetic correlation with the innovator must be slight indeed. Thus civilization probably slowly reduces its altruism of all kinds, including the kinds needed for cultural creativity (see also Eshel 1972).

The peak of Greek civilization was only reached after the "ingredient of progress" had been introduced by the Indo-European invaders. By the time complete mediocrity set in, the disproportionately Nordic and Indo-European-descended aristocracy had all but disappeared. Lundman agrees that:

The racial structure of the old historical European peoples - the Greeks, Romans, and Celts - has been treated at length in my book Geographische Anthropologie (1967). Certainly, these peoples had, at least in their upper social strata, stronger Nordic components than the present inhabitants of these lands.

Roger Pearson (1991) has suggested the possibility that "Europe has suffered a severe dysgenic decline over the past two thousand years". If this is true, Greece, which today has perhaps the lowest average IQ in Europe, may have been particularly hard hit. On the other hand, it may well be that only the elite classes in ancient Greece were exceptionally intelligent. And, when the elites died out or were absorbed by the much more numerous masses, the intellectual power of Greece was dissipated.

A graphical outline of Greek racial history

The above chart, from Angel (1944), illustrates the racial history of Greece (arrows, highlighting added). Even Angel is forced to acknowledge the presence of an important Nordic element in Classical Greece. Two points need to be stressed.

  • As mentioned above, many aristocratic Greeks were cremated. Add to that the fact that the aristocracy made up only a tiny segment of the Greek population, and it should be obvious that the relatively few ancient Greek skeletal remains that have been recovered will have little to say about the racial types of the more important classes of ancient Greeks; but, the trends are suggestive, particularly when considered along with the evidence from portraiture.

  • "Nordic-Iranian" is an overly broad category, which likely includes both European Nordics and eastern Iranian types. So, although a "Nordic-Iranian" element remains in Greece even into Byzantine times, this doesn't necessarily mean that classical Nordics survived in significant numbers. It's interesting that Angel indicates that the dominant Nordic-Iranian types in Classical Greece were D1-3 [D1 is a type of Nordic "between Anglo-Saxon and Keltic area norms" and D2 is the Corded type], while, in Roman times, there was a shift to types D3&4 [D3 is "Iranian-Mediterranean" and D4 is "Iranian"].

A note about J. Lawrence Angel

While there is no reason to doubt Angel's sub-racial classifications of ancient Greek skeletal remains, the conclusions Angel draws based on his analyses are highly questionable. Angel had already decided upon his conclusions before he ever set foot in Greece or examined a Greek skull.

I came to Greece as a graduate student hoping to unravel the social biology of this area, partly in answer to Nazi racist interpretations. (The People of Lerna, p. 6)

Angel's anti-racist politics cloud his work. To take an example, Angel (1973) reports that the Mycenaean Shaft Grave royalty are 38.1% Nordic-Iranian and 0% (!) Mediterranean. Angel acknowledges that "they show less Mediterranean, Basic White, and Alpine ('pre-Greek' trait combinations) and more Nordic-Iranian and Dinaroid-Mixed Alpine tendencies than commoners show." Angel admits that "[p]ossibly the aristocrats are a little more fully derived from . . . [Indo-European] intruders than the commoners are", but he immediately dismisses this hypothesis in favor of his pet "social selection" theory. The royals average "about 5 cm taller than their subjects"; they have "remarkably thick bones" and "massive bodies and heads"; and they differ subracially from their subjects "in the direction of the Iranian steppe". Yet, Angel would have us believe they owe their distinctiveness exclusively to diet and the Indo-European invaders who imposed the Greek language failed to leave a strong genetic imprint on the Greek aristocracy. Given the two theories:

  1. That "the aristocrats are a little more fully derived from . . . [Indo-European] intruders".
  2. That "the rulers spring directly from the extraordinarily mixed late Middle Bronze Age population which they ruled over", the differences between the former and the latter being due to "better diet" and "social selection".
Surely, after examining the data, no objective observer would claim (2) is a stronger theory than (1). But, undoubtedly owing to his politics, Angel does. The data Angel presents is of interest; the anti-Nordicist spin Angel puts on the data -- and his pro (sub)race-mixing agitprop -- can be safely ignored.

One final note. Angel mentions that the aristocrats were "20% more variable than normal" in "head and face form and body size". High metrical variability need not imply heterogeneous origins, though Angel would seem to want us to assume such. In Jacobs et al. (1996), a paper discussing the subject of racial typology with reference to NE Europe, the authors mention that:

. . . the values [of variance of cranial dimensions] for the Danish sample are particularly significant for those who would privilege the use of anthropological types as a means to diagnose the diverse ethnogenetic origins of a skeletal sample. The Danish sample is consistently and without exception the most variable in all comparisons. Yet chronological, archaeological and other data . . . suggest that this sample also approximates more closely than do any of the others a single, closed and panmictic breeding group. Thus there is the least probability of mixing of biologically different 'types' in instance of the sample which shows the greatest osteometric variability. (pp. 291-292)

Negroids in ancient Greece

An Ethiopian living in Greece in the 1st century A.D. "Memnon, Ethiopian favorite of Sophist Herodes Atticus"

RM claims:

"There’s no evidence that blacks were at all present in Ancient Greece"

The above statement is blatantly false.

In his book Race, John R. Baker writes that:

Evans provides a few pictures of persons showing Negrid characters, and suggests that 'partly negroized elements' may have been brought to Crete as captives. (517)

(Before you afrocentrists get your hopes up, know that Baker makes clear: "No one has ever suggested, on evidence either from skulls or pictures, that any non-Europid people participated in the origin or development of Cretan civilization.")

The presence of Negroid or partially-Negroid types in Greece is confirmed by cranial evidence. J.L. Angel reports:

In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.), only two or three more among 364 from fifth to second millenium B.C., one among 113 Early Iron Age, one or two among 233 Classic and Hellenistic skeletons, but four clear Negroids (all from one area of Early Christian Corinth) among ninety-five Roman period, two among eighty-five Medieval, and of course ten among fifty-two Turkish period Greeks, yet none among 202 of Romantic (nineteenth century) date.

Frank Snowden has researched the presence of blacks in the ancient Greece from the standpoint of art and literature. His findings include:

Both the literary and archaeological evidence points to a not infrequent crossing between blacks and whites. Nothing in the observations on such unions, whether marriage or concubinage, resembles certain modern strictures on racial mixture.

Of course one reason for the color bar which recently existed in the West was the belief that it was race mixing which led to the collapse of Greek, Roman, and other civilizations. . . .

No laws in the Greco-Roman world prohibited unions of blacks and whites. Ethiopian blood was interfused with that of Greeks and Romans. No Greek or Roman author condemned such racial mixture. . . . The scientists Aristotle and Pliny, like Plutarch, commented as scientists on the physical appearance of those born of black-white racial mixture but included nothing resembling certain modern strictures on miscegenation. . . . It is safe to assume, therefore, that in course of time many Ethiopians were assimilated into a predominantly white population. (Blacks in Antiquity, 193-195)

With respect to the number of blacks in ancient Greece, Snowden states:

Even though we cannot state, in the manner of modern sociologists and historians,the ratio of Blacks to Whites in either Greece or Italy, we can say that Ethiopians were by no means few or rare sights and that their presence, whatever their numbers, constituted no color problem. (Blacks in Antiquity, 186)

Most slaves in Greece were Caucasoid. But, since slaves were a large fraction of the population, even if blacks made up a small minority of slaves many may have been present. A Greek source gives a figure of 400,000 slaves in Attica in 317 BC, compared to 21,000 adult male citizens and 10,000 adult male metics (resident aliens). While modern authors recognize that the 400,000 figure "must be wrong" (Webster 1973, 41), it seems that all Athenians who could afford to owned slaves, and some owned up to 1,000. In the end, Webster estimates that slaves made up roughly a third of the population of Athens (62,000 out of a total population of 186,000 -- personally, I think this may be an underestimate). If one third of the remaining population consisted of metics, that means that less than half the inhabitants of Athens were citizens.

Mulattoes in ancient Greece

Some individuals claim that, while there may have been non-white slaves present in ancient Greece, Greek customs would have prevented any mixing with foreigners. The upper classes did, initially anyway, strongly resist mixing with foreigners. However, the upper classes did not make up anywhere near the bulk of the people living in Greece. There is no reason to expect the slaves and lower or middle classes (who greatly outnumbered the aristocracy) would have abided by the same customs as the upper classes. And, as Peterson notes, "many [members of the merchant and artisan classes] were of foreign extraction", so one hardly expects them to have had qualms about mixing with "foreigners". It should also be noted that:

The slave had the same legal protection as a metic, and he had his chance of buying freedom . . . Politically, it might be right to think of citizens, metics, and slaves as three different grades. But economically, and therefore to a considerable extent socially, they ran parallel. Metics and slaves were certainly found in quantity in the same income range which covered ninety per cent of the citizens, the unskilled and skilled laborers. (Webster 1973, 47).

Though after 451 there were laws "restricting citizenship to the children of two citizen parents", Webster thinks it likely that "in fact a number of Athenians did have children by foreigners or freedwomen, and their children were accepted as citizens" (1973, 54).

There can be no doubt that the slave and metic populations were absorbed into the Greek population as a whole. Regardless of whether or not they mixed with citizens in Classical times (and there seems to be little doubt that they did mix, on at least some occasions, with at least the lower strata of citizenry), they didn't just disappear at the end of the Classical age. They would have continued to increase in number over time, and eventually they must have been incorporated into the people we today call "Greeks". There is no reason the situation with negroid slaves/metics would have been any different.

According to Frank Snowden:

Black-white sexual relations were never the cause of great emotional crises and many blacks were physically assimilated into the predominantly white populations of the Mediterranean world.

Snowden also mentions:

the number of references to Ethiopians in Greek literature of the fifth century BC, on the appearance of mulatto children following the presence of blacks in Greece in the army of Xerxes, and on the many artistic representations of the mid- and late-fifth century BC reflecting this anthropological evolution.

Arthur Kemp has compiled an extensive set of references on the presence of Negroes and racial mixing in ancient Greece. Primary sources make it clear that there were, in fact, mixed race offspring born in Greece (and Rome, for that matter). In light of this fact, it seems obvious that there has been introgression of sub-Saharan genes into the Greek gene pool.

Negroid admixture in Greece

Considering the foregoing, it should come as no surprise that Richards et al. (2000) detected Ethiopian mtDNA haplogroup M1 in Greece. Additionally, sub-Saharan Y-chromosome haplogroup A (most common among Khoisians and Ethiopians) was found in an individual from Mitilini (Di Giacomo et al. in press). Other sub-Saharan haplogroups are found in Greece's neighbors. Note, Greece remains relatively little studied with respect to population genetics. The few relevant studies that have been done have fairly small sample sizes. It's too early to say much about levels of sub-Saharan mtDNA markers compared to other countries in Europe. In any event, exact levels of recent sub-Saharan mtDNA and Y-chromosome markers aren't all that relevant, since larger amounts of Negroid genes may have entered Greece via Negroid-admixed, E3b-carrying North African males.

E3b, the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Greece, "probably originated in eastern Africa" (Semino et al. 2004). It has been proposed that the most frequent E3b subclade in Greece, E-M78, which accounts for nearly half of Peloponnesian Y-chromosomes (Cruciani et al. 2004), originated in Somalia (Sanchez et al. 2003). Bearing in mind the above, it is perhaps not so surprising that the much maligned study "HLA Genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan Origin of the Greeks" independently reported a genetic connection between Ethiopians and Greeks (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 2001).

In addition to ancient admixture, some Negroid admixture may have accrued to Greece during Ottoman times. Buxton and Rice (1931) mention that "in Cyprus there is a greater proportion of platyrrhiny among the lower classes than in other social strata, but this is perhaps due to the importation of negro slaves by the Turks." Angel (1945) mentions a "Turkish period skeleton" from Athens, "which is unquestionably the remains of a Negroid individual, though possibly with very slight white admixture." Interestingly, 4.3% of Y-chromosomes in a sample of Turkish Cypriots are sub-Saharan (Cruciani et al. 2004; values for Greek Cypriots aren't reported).

Mongoloid admixture in Greece

In addition to Negroid admixture, there is clear genetic evidence for Mongoloid admixture in Greece. In a sample of 118 Greeks, "HpaI morph 1 [a Mongoloid marker] was detected for the first time in a European sample" (Astrinidis 1994).

3% of Greek Y-chromosomes belong to HG26, a haplogroup which is found at high frequencies in some Mongoloid populations. However, the presence of HG26 is not -- as Dienekes once claimed -- proof of Mongoloid ancestry, since HG26 is defined by a very old mutation (HG26 is ancestral to the common European haplogroup HG1). The original bearers of HG26 were most likely either Caucasoid, or of a racial type ancestral to both Caucasoids and Mongoloids. Regardless, many Asian steppe populations belong predominantly to Y-chromosome haplogroups which are also found in Europe (HG26, HG1), making it difficult to assess the male Mongoloid contribution in Greece with the data we currently have. I expect that further study will demonstrate Central Asian ancestry in Greece, as has already been demonstrated in nearby countries.

Mongoloid and Central Asian mtDNA and Y markers are present on the Croatian island Hvar.

Worthy of note is the finding of considerable frequency of haplogroup P*(xM173) in the population of the island of Hvar. According to Wells et al this lineage displays maximum in Central Asia while being rare in Europe, Middle East and East Asia. Its presence in Hvar recapitulates our finding of mtDNA haplogroup F on the island of Hvar and in mainland Croatian population that is virtually absent in Europe but, again, common in populations from Central and Eastern Asia. There are several possibilities for the occurrence of the ancestral lineage of M173. One is the well-documented alliance of Avars (a Mongol people) and Slavs (Croatians) that followed Avar arrival to the eastern Adriatic in 6th century AD. The other is the expansion of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th to 18th century AD when refugees from the western Balkan frequently immigrated to the islands. Lastly, the ancient Silk Road linking China with western Asia and Europe could be a possible path of P(xM173) lineage, too. Any of these migratory patterns could have introduced this mutation to the investigated population. (Barac et al. 2003)
Paleolithic European HG1 is marked with the M173 mutation. As noted above, P*(xM173) is found in Croatia, indicating the presence of Central Asian genes in the Balkans. It would be interesting to see what proportion of the HG1 in Greece is marked with M173, but I'm not aware of any studies which have reported this data.

In Anatolia, "[t]he most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci" (Di Benedetto et al. 2001). Since there is no strong genetic barrier seperating Greece and Anatolia (see, for example, Simoni et al. 1999), there is no reason to believe modern Greeks have been shielded from the significant Central Asian input in their neighbors.

It should be obvious from history and geography that Greeks have more Mongoloid ancestry than, e.g., Germans; just as Hungarians no doubt have more Mongoloid admixture than western Europeans, so to do Greeks. And Greeks certainly have vastly more Mongoloid admixture than the British. See below for examples of Greek celebrities with obvious Mongoloid admixture.

Photographs of Greeks

RM's photos of "Greeks"

Some of the "Greek" celebrities RM has posted are probably not fully Greek by ancestry. For example, Bob Costas' full name is "Robert Quinlan Costas". Unless someone can think of a better reason why a "Greek" would have an Irish surname for a middle name, I'll take this piece of evidence to mean Costas is probably half-Irish. It is hard to confirm whether or not the other Greek-Americans RM has posted are of full Greek ancestry. For example, I've heard that Alexi Lalas is only half-Greek.

Typical Greeks:

Corina Stergiaou (left), "a very typical Greek woman", says Dienekes; Pete Sampras (right), "looks entirely Greek", according to Pontian Greek and amateur anthropologist Dienekes Pontikos.

Greek students:


Ethnic Greeks enrolled at UK and US universities.

Some Greek celebrities with visible Mongoloid ancestry:

L-R: Ioanna Soulioti; Marios Fragkoulis; Yanna Lyberi

More Greeks with apparent non-European ancestry:

L-R: Vana Barba (Negroid strain?); K. Dmitris Tsatsos (Hither Asiatic); Unknown (Orientalid strain?)

In the interest of bandwidth, I'll leave it at that. Though, if I wished to, I could list a dozen genuinely non-European-looking Greeks for every "Hamito-Semitic" Briton RM has posted.

Addendum

In response to this page, RM has renamed his "Myth #7" to something that makes a bit more sense (though he is still, of course, wrong in implying that the Greeks haven't changed since antiquity). RM has also removed the photo of Bob Costas.

RM has been forced to retract his wishful, unresearched claim that "no evidence [exists] that blacks were at all present in Ancient Greece".

Summary and Conclusions

  • The Greeks have changed since antiquity; changes include the blending of what, in classical times, had been genetic isolates and the disappearance of the elites responsible for much of ancient Greek achievement. Gene flow into Greece has also occured, the exact levels and effects of which are not known.
  • Primary sources, art, and anthropological evidence support the presence of blacks and the birth of mulattoes in ancient Greece.
  • The Greeks have Negroid admixture, the exact extent of which is indeterminable with current data. Though, to be fair, they probably have less Negroid admixture than the Portuguese.
  • The Greeks have Mongoloid admixture.
  • More research is needed before we can make definitive pronouncements on, e.g.:
    • the precise levels of Negroid and Mongoloid ancestry in Greece.
    • exactly how recent the ~20% "recent" Near Eastern gene flow to Greece is. This gene flow is from later than the Neolithic, but how much is from historical times and later? And to what degree has this admixture altered the Greek population?
    • how much Slavs and Albanians contributed to the Greek gene pool, and what sort of genetic impact the impact the Turks had on Greece.

Sources

Angel, J. Lawrence. A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 2 N.S., Number 4. 1944.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Skeletal Material from Attica. Hesperia. Volume 14, Issue 4. The American Excavations in the Athenian Agora: Twenty-Seventh Report. Oct-Dec 1945. 279-363.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Human Skeletons from Grave Circles at Mycenae. In G. E. Mylonas (ed.). Ho Taphikos Kyklos B ton Mykenon [The Grave Circle B at Mycenae (Greek)] Volume I. Athens: Athenais Archaiologikes Etaireias, 1973. pp. 379-97.

Arnaiz-Villena et al. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.

Astrinidis, A. and A. Kouvatsi. Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in northern Greece. Hum Biol. 1994 Aug;66(4):601-11.

Baker, John R. Race. Oxford, London, 1974.

Barac et al. Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates. Eur J Hum Genet. 2003 Jul;11(7):535-42.

Buxton, L.H. Dudley and D. Talbot Rice. Report on the Human Remains found at Kish. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland. Volume 61. Jan-Jun 1931. 57-119.

Clark, Edwin. The Roots of the White Man (Part I): A Reply to Jared Taylor. American Renaissance. Vol 7, No. 11. November, 1996.

Coon, Carleton S. The Greeks in The Races of Europe. Macmillan, New York, 1939.

Cruciani et al. Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup e3b (e-m215) y chromosomes reveals multiple migratory events within and out of Africa. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1014-22. Epub 2004 Mar 24

Day, John V. In Quest of Our Linguistic Ancestors: The Elusive Origins of the Indo-Europeans. The Occidental Quarterly, Volume 2, Number 3. Fall 2002.

Di Benedetto et al. DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56.

Di Giacomo et al. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. In Press.

Hall, Jonathan M. Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity. Cambridge, New York, Cambridge University Press, 1997.

Hamilton, W.D. Innate social aptitudes of man: an approach from evolutionary genetics. In R. Fox (ed.), Biosocial Anthropology. Malaby Press, London, 133-53. 1975.

Jacobs et al. Pitfalls in the Search for Ethnic Origins: a Cautionary Tale regarding the Construction of "Anthropological Types" in Pre-Indo-European Northeast Europe. In Jones-Bley and Huld (eds.), The Indo-Europeanization of Northern Europe. Washington, D.C.: Institute for the Study of Man, 1996.

Lundman, Bertil. The racial history of Europe: an outline in The Races and Peoples of Europe.

Murphy, John. Racial Crossing and Cultural Efflorescence. Man. Volume 41. Jan-Feb 1941.

Pearson, Roger. Some comments on Lynn's thesis by an anthropologist. Mankind Quarterly. Fall/Winter 1991. Vol. 32. Issue 1/2. p175.

Peterson, R. The Greek Face. The Journal of Indo-European Studies. Volume 2, Number 4. Winter, 1974. 385-406.

Richards et al. Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 2000 Nov;67(5):1251-76. Supplementary data.

Richards et al. In Search of Geographical Patterns in European Mitochondrial DNA. Am J Hum Genet 2002 Nov;71(5):1168-74.

Sanchez et al. Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population suggests the origin of the haplogroup E3b1. 2nd DNA POLYMORPHISMS IN HUMAN POPULATIONS International Symposium - Paris - December 5-6, 2003

Semino et al. Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of y-chromosome haplogroups e and j: inferences on the neolithization of europe and later migratory events in the mediterranean area. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1023-34. Epub 2004 Apr 06.

Simoni et al. Patterns of gene flow inferred from genetic distances in the Mediterranean region. Hum Biol. 1999 Jun;71(3):399-415.

Snowden, Frank M., Jr. Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman experience. Cambridge. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. 1970.

Tenzer, Lawrence R. How Do We Inherit Our Skin Color? from A Completely New Look At Interracial Sexuality.

Theroux, Paul. The Pillars of Hercules: A Grand Tour of The Mediterranean. G.P. 1995.

Webster, T.B.L. Athenian Culture and Society. Batsford, London, 1973.

Additional reading

The Negro presence in classical Greece -- an overview and References to Race in Classical Grecian writing by Arthur Kemp

Nordic Hellas by Karl Earlson

Photos of ancient Greek statuary (scroll down to "griechisch")

The Myth of Greek Ethnic 'Purity'

Modern Greece: re-invention and pretension




82 comments:

Anonymous said...

Such erudite effort to denigrate a nation and question the genetic-cultural continuity of the Greeks can only be attributed to a chip on your shoulders too heavy to bear. Get it through your heads, you freckle-faced, pink-skinned wannabees: you will forever be overshadowed by the vibrant spirit of things that has flourished and still flourishes in Greece, be it past or present.Your ridiculous claims put you in the good company of those Afrocentric scholars(?) who advocate that the first Greeks were black! A real freak parade! The Greek character of today in physique and mentality is as diverse as it was three millenia ago, ranging from dark-haired and brunette to blond (the latter always in a minority, or else ancient writers would never have felt the need to emphasize the blondness of a given hero). Learn Greek, mingle with the people and you will find all the vices and virtues that described the ancient Greeks amongst their descendants today. Do not do this, and condemn yourselves to a smug ignorance of reality. Really, why is it that no other nation has been subjected to such scorn and scrutiny about its continuity as the modern Greeks? Does it hurt so much to be so distanced from the country's glorious past? In any event, even if the modern Greeks were the mongrels you paint them out to be, they are still more likely to have more in common with the ancient inhabitants of Greece than any other western European who had civilization imposed on him by the Roman Legions. Nothing fermented in Europe, for civilization was force fed by the Roman sword, whereas in Greece there has always been cultural and ethnic continuity.
Keep hurting, barbarians. You deserve it.

Anonymous said...

Let's don't overcomplicate things and stick to the written records. As moslems were conquering parts of the Byzantine Middle East, multitudes of Christian refuges from Asia Minor, Syria, and even Egypt poured into "safe" European Grece. Here's your modern Mediteranean looking Greek type vs. norhtern looking Greeks of the archaic and classical times.

Anonymous said...

Among 7 guided BILLION exhausted people on Earth, cannibalism may destroy ALL of them, if we do not RECONCILIATE soon, stopping aggressives, boycotting ovepopulation religions , and openly discussing about the sapped direct-democratic Golden Century, that can still offer humankind the UNIFIED list for elections solution! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvF1ha-M40Uhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scKqrz754gUPS: No bones have ever prooved that mass migrations ever happened in Northeastern Mediterranean, thus autochthons Greeks always absorbed passing few families and sometimes changed language to save kids by barbarian haters, including Greek originated Myceneans, Troyans, Pelleans and janissaries.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the comment below. You get an A for effort but an F for attainment. This paper contributes nothing of value. I think someone's a little jealous of Greek-American billionaire families such as Latsis, Niarchos and Calamos to name but a few. We have not fallen in modern times. We have given you the super oil-tanker (Stavros Niarchos), the electic guitar (Leonidas Fender), the Blackberry (Mike Lazaridis), the pap-smear (Dr Georgios Papanikolaou) to name but a few contributions to modern society.

theo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

http://www.hellenicsociety.org/images/Renaissance08/Greeks%20being%20Greek.jpg

Greek moneys

Hellenas said...

Answering to the question "are Greeks white?" YES, the Greeks/Hellenes are WHITE, some of us just are sun-tanned. According to the Aristotelion university of Thessaloniki, of Greek Macedonia, The Hellenes are 75% paleolithic in Europe and 25% Neolithic(meaning that half of the 25% came from Middle East/Near East and from Central/Northern Europe). ONLY 12,50% OF GREEKS ARE NOT EUROPEANS. As for the "Turks", they are mixed with us not we with them.

Hellenas... said...

A nice site for Nordics

You are not the ancient Hellenes, neither Apollon.

http://www.freewebs.com/carthia/racialcontroversy.htm

Kristina said...

Poor Nordic trash can't accept that your people were living in Huts and had no culture whatsoever before the Romans & Greeks discovered you.

You ideals go against all historical evidence if Greeks were Nordic they wouldn't have described the barbarians as "Galatoi" which translates into "Milky ones" or "Ones with fair skin as white as milk".

Anonymous said...

Its funny how nordic people can't accept its culture was as basic as the culture of african or american tribes. Always looking at lies like this cheap investigation to feel better.

Come on nordic people! give a try to the fact that civilization has nothing to do with race but with attitude and freedom. We the greeks (black curly haired & dark skinned as we were) knew that centuries before you, that's why we built what we built.

Old germanic peoples were not but archaic warriors, thieves and felons until they turned to the roman and greek values. They were certainly smarter in doing so than modern nazis.


From a gothic and greek descendant

Hellenas... said...

Are the Greeks "still" Indo-European? Were they ever?

ALL ANSWERS HERE:

http://hellas2010.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=raceandanthropology&action=display&thread=5

Saviour, Oxford. said...

You know what? From a Greek point of view I found your article interesting and well thought/researched. I certainly believe that a lot of admixing has happened in Greece/Hellas and it is very obvious if you travel around the country.

But...

What did you accomplish exactly by doing it?

I hope you appreciate the fact that civilization as you now know it is based on those little "dark skinned" people.

The spirit of ancient Greece does not lie with some homeric, blond hero like Alcibiades, but Socrates, the lowly, ugly, mutt face of a commoner.

Fighter, Thinker, Human.

Please do not forget that Nordic countries at the time were little more than specs in the map, a motley collection of townships that did little more than war incessantly, and in a disorganized manner at that.

I'm not sure about the percentages of Aryan-negroid etc etc admixes in the region's populace, but the fact remains:

Greek/Hellenic have been spoken in the area for at least 3 millenia. The fact that a modern Greek, well educated (in the contemporary language form) can understand something written 2000 years ago should speak volumes.

Can you say the same for the Germans?

PS.: While you started your research and carried it through in a very scientific manner, you really managed to screw it up at the end with those celebrity/student pictures.
I hope the fair people of the United Kingdom and their genetic heritage in the future will not be judged by a nut-case with photos of Ashley Cole.

Hellenas... said...

"I certainly believe that a lot of admixing has happened in Greece/Hellas and it is very obvious if you travel around the country."

That's not true. Hellas for the most part is Atlanto-Mediterranean/East Mediterranean(Westerns) or Pontic(Russians) or Aegean(Hellenes) & East-Alpine, as Ancient Hellas was, all other types form a minority. So we are not so mixed as well.

"I hope you appreciate the fact that civilization as you now know it is based on those little "dark skinned" people."

First of all, the Hellenes are not "little", Carleton S. Coon "The stature mean for Greeks in general runs about 167 cm., and there seems to be little regional variation; those in Asia Minor and in the Crimea are a millimeter shorter, those measured in Boston a millimeter taller. The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen;" and secondly, their pigmentation is "About half of them have brunet-white or light brown skin color, the rest the usual pinkish-white of central and northern Europe;". This 25% of light brown skin color is also untrue, as most are sun-tanned.

Anonymous said...

Todays Greeks are the Sole and Legal modern representatives of the Hellenic legacy which includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

No other modern people in the Balkans [Haemus] Peninsula or on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes than todays modern Greeks.

The Internet is Littered with ant-Greek propaganda designed and developed to Rubbish the modern Greeks both on their National Character and on their Cultural Heritage...We have since learned that most of it emenates from Turkic and Slavic sources, they aim to detach the modern Greeks from certain elements of their cultural heritage in order to usurp it for themselves, see FYRoM Name Dispute.

Anonymous said...

Greeks...since the beginning, have been a seafaring International People consequently Greeks met and intermingled with other peoples.

Greeks are said to be "cousins" to a wide variety of peoples.

The Greek Character having formed over millenia, can be summarized as being multi-layered and multifaceted.

Most people would firstly consider the Greek Hellenic people as being a Mediterraneans but there is more.

1....Mediterranean: Greeks could be clustered together with Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the French, within the context of a greater Greaco-Roman civilization.

2....Western European: since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization.

3....Eastern European: since Greeks baptized christianized and civilized the Slavic Tribes into the Greek Orthodox Religion and Byzantium.

4....Middle-Eastern: since the Greek expansion into Asia ensured prolonged ties with Oriental Eastern Cultures.

5....Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this term, Greeks prefer the term Southeastern European....anyway, a Balkan Identity similar to that of the Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians does exist. There are common elements, contributions from the Eastern Roman Empire and also from the Ottoman Empire, all this bears testament to shared attributes between Greek Hellenic and others...Infusion of Greek Hellenic genes into the various gene pools of other peoples is best explained by the works of Luca Cavali-Sforza, the world's leading geneticist.

The Greeks have always been an International People since time immemorial... The Greek Character is Multi-layered and Multifaceted, drawing in embedded experiances from five different geographical locations

The Greeks were never Restricted to one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border's in ancient times.

Greece in ancient times could be visualized spanning from the far West of Spain.....to as far East as Georgia.

There was never a country called Greece in ancient times, instead there were Many Greeks inhabiting Many regions....from Spain to Georgia.

Anonymous said...

Talking about direct blood relations with any of the ancient peoples from antquity is something the Turkics and the SouthSlavs accuse the modern Greeks of doing, but there have been Instances where Turkics and SouthSlavs were found to be doing the exact same thing in order to justify FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs connections to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity and the modern Bulgarian connections back to the ancient Thracians...This is Ill-advised, it is fraught with all sorts of academic/biological and genetic stumbling blocks simply because nobody really knows to which Blood Type or to which Dna haplogroups the ancient Macedonians or the ancient Thracians actually belonged!

Suffice to say, the modern Greek claims of continuity are Not actually based on direct blood connections, the Greeks have always said they can trace their lineage back to the ancient peoples of antiquity...Not directly, but in a somewhat fragmented fashion!

Modern Greeks can trace their history and heritage back, in a "backwards compatible" fashion, consistant and compatible to, and synchronized with the established historical record...traversing a time continuum spanning many thousands of years.

Linguistically and Culturally...It is Todays Greeks that can legitimately claim to be the Sole and Legal modern Representatives of the Hellenic Legacy which Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. No Other modern people in the Balkans or on this Planet are closer to them than todays modern Greeks.

Talk of direct Blood connections to any ancient group could be miscontrued with talking about "Purity" which could then be misconstrued as having affiliations to or with Nazism or Racism or even Facism which is something the Turkics and the SouthSlavs accuse the Greeks of doing, but on several occasions they actually reversed the roles...It is the FYRoMians that actually talk about direct Blood connections to the ancient Macedonians or to the ancient Thracians from antiquity!

Common sense dictates that in terms of blood/Dna connections, the peoples of Southeastern Europe would be closer to Alexander the Great than say Western Europeans, and if we continue with that type of logic, the Southern part of the Haemus [Balkan] Peninsula would be closer to them than the Northern part...Common sense would dictate that the people living South of the Jirecek line would be more connected to the ancient Macedonians/Thracians than those who reside North of the Jirecek line.

Todays Greeks really are the closest Living Breathing Walking Talking modern People to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

Anonymous said...

The Whiteness of a Germanic or a Celtic or a Slavic means what exactly ???

The Germanics were forest dwellers, the Celts an earthy people and the Slavs, well what of the Slavs, each of these so called White races are what exactly ???

Lets not forget the Greeks gave us the word Evropi [Europe] A Europe without Greeks in it is not Europe at all...rather a conglomorate alliance of the descendents of forest dwellers, earthy people and Slavs!

I look at GrecoRoman people and I see a certain beauty to behold, I look at Germanics Celtics and Slavs...a Whiteness so dull in comparison to the GrecoRoman People!

Anonymous said...

The Greeks were cut down at a very significant moment in their evolutionary development...Had it not been for the Turk, the GrecoRoman people would have advanced to have dominated the European mind, body and soul.

The Byzantine empire [Eastern Roman Empire] destroyed by the Eastern Asiatic Oriental Musulman Turk, still resonates in the mindset of those European architects who's job it is to Terraform a political landscape which could support or at least incorporate such an entity on the continent of Europe in the modern era!

Wherever the Musulman Turk went, he destroyed civilisations and laid waste to centuries of human development and enlightenment.

Nothing good can be said of the musulman Turk, he is the most backward of all the eastern oriental asiatic races...so backward in his thoughts and the human development aspect.

Turkey has developed in leaps and bounds of late, but that is not due to the Turk, it is due to the fact that the Turkish race has been significantly diluted in order to allow the European Balkanian and Hebrew elements in it to dominate.

The Turk destroyed a civilization and a way of life which was a bastion of Greek thought wisdom and sapience, administered under a Roman system of juridiction, it endured for almost two Millenia.

The Turk inherited the best part of Europe and the most wealthiest part of Europe with a GrecoRoman population so enlightened, I mean so advanced in all of the sholarly and academic disciplines and within a short space of time...his governance over them, converted them and that Part of Europe into the the most Illiterate and poorest. Nothing good can be said of the Eastern Asiatic Oriental Turk.

The Modern Turk has developed in many ways but that is not due to his roots or his ethno-origins, it is due to the significant Cultural and Genetic Infusion from the peoples who's enlightenment he tried so hard to destroy!

The Modern Turk Looks back at himself and sees Not a Turk but a GrecoRoman or a Slav or a Herbrew or a Kurd or an Arab or an......

Turks have a long way to go before we could consider them to be European enough...Who, of the Europen races supported the Turk and watched him rise in the East to the detriment of Byzantium!

Anonymous said...

Nordic and Nordicist lowlife shits
are just that, lowlife pieces of shit in comparison to the people that gave us Athens Rome and Constantinopolis.

Nordic blond blue eyed gypsies are just that, lowlife gypsies, with blond hair and blue eyes, they do not compare in the aesthetic looks of the quintessential Mediterranean, the Greek Spanish or Italian look.

Anonymous said...

Only in the minds of some sick and twisted Nordic or Nordicist lowlife pieces of shit do they equate themselves to the ancient Hellenes when in reality they should equate themselves to the white mongols, the Avars and the Huns, their true ancestors

Anonymous said...

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that this site along with so many others one finds on the internet is administered by SlavoMongols of the FYROM variety.

TurkoSlavs deceptively disguised as Nordicist plebs, playing the white man in order to rubbish the Greeks on the worldwide web.

Anonymous said...

This site is definately affiliated with the Revisionist Pseudo-Historians and Specialist Propagandists of FYRoM and their Turkic friends...The Proof is the last two links they have provided
entitled:

Link 1...The Myth of Ethnic Purity
Link 2...Modern Greece:re-invention and pretension

Both sites above are FYRoM Propaganda sites.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs aided and abetted by their Turkic cousins like to play the White Man...They have hijacked the Nordic Nordicist agenda in order to denigrate the modern Greeks on the WorldWide Web!

Anonymous said...

True White people are the Albino types...If we refer to white people as Caucasian, then Greeks are just as white as any other but If we base Whiteness solely on skin colour, that would make Albino people the only true whites as the majority of European people are not actually really white, rather a blend of olive and off-white.

Anonymous said...

At one stage the Ango-Saxons considered the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, as being generally of a swarthy Complexion, the Anglos considered themselves Supremo Alpha Whites...and then it all went pear shaped, darkness set in when Anglo women wrapped their legs around those swarthy gits.

Swarthiness crept into the Anglo-Saxon world through the back door...almost!

Anonymous said...

IndoEuropean is a linguistic term...when this word is used, it referes to a group of languages split between the Centum branch and the Satem branch.

The Greek Hellenic language belongs to the Centum branch of IndoEuropean languages.

FYRoM's supposed "Macedonian" language is Not real Macedonian, real Macedonian is the Greek Hellenic language. FYRoM's language is actually a hybrid mix of SerboBulgarian concocted in 1944
and presented to the outside world as "Macedonian" whilst Slavdoms academia Turned their heads at such Silliness.

FYRoM's SerboBulgarian language is Slavic language it belongs to the other side of the IndoEuropean language group...It belongs to the Satem side and Not really Macedonian as in the Greek sense of that word.

Is Greece IndoEuropean, was it ever......

Are Nordic people, Nordicist's thick...You decide!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians: Spawned from Hellenism Not from Nordicism.

Slavism and Turkism, both have tried very hard, both have tried their very best to graunch away, to detach the ancient Macedonians away from the rest of the Greeks, but what have they really achieved ???

The Slavic World and the Turkic World have Exposed themselves for what they really are, they have revealed to the world their love for Revisionism and Pseudo-History where the former, the Slav, has Scripted himself a History so Crude and so Crass where the Slavs leapfrog back into the ancient past as ancient Veneti people and SerboBulgarian speaking Macedonians...This is how Slavic Revisionist Pseudo-Historians see themselves!

The latter, the Turkics, well they have Scripted themselves a History just as Crude and just as Crass, in their Pseudo-History they leapfrog back into the ancient past, Not as Turkics but as Etruscans and Trojans...This is how the Turkic Revisionist Pseudo-Historians see themselves in their Warped and Perverted Minds.

Slavic and Turkic Warped Minds, Sick and Twisted Slavic and Turkic Minds have Brainwashed their Youth Beyond Repair!

Europe keeps them at arms length...at a distance where they belong. When Europe assigns and attributes the ancient Greeks with the founding of the Arts and the Sciences, and most of the other academic and scholarly disciplines...Slavics and Turkics sift and search the historical archives in order to find articles which discredit the ancient Greeks, they would much rather praise NoN Europeans than to see the Greeks accreditted with them.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs aided and abbetted by the Turkics are the Only people in Europe to divert away from this long established practice where ancient Greeks were praised for their inquisitiveness and their abilities in the academic field for the pursuit of all universal knowledge.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs would have us believe that they are somehow more "Macedonian" than the Macedonians of the Hellenic Republic, they have Inappropriately named their country Republic of Macedonia so that should entitle them to a Macedonian Identity which ought to be recognized Internationally, their mindset goes like this: I am a Macedonian because I live in a country called Macedonia and I speak the Macedonian language...When it is pointed out to them that their country is really Paeonia and their Slavic language is really SerboBulgarian, Not really Macedonian, they clam up, unable to accept it...too much Information Overload, so they blank it out but the reality is, they are Not Macedonians, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word. The Hellenic Republic holds the academic and the moral high ground...Greece has never used propaganda in the name dispute fiasco with FYRoM. The Hellenic Republic has only ever used logic and common sense plus it's timeserved Greek wisdom and sapience, utilizing the Intellectual capacity of world academia it's main tool and preferred method for combating FYRoM's Silliness.

Todays Greeks are the real deal, they can prove it linguistically and culturally, they can go even further by proving a biological genealogical compatibility with previous generations of Greeks. Modern Greeks can prove that they are just as Greek as any of the ancient Greeks and that Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.
[link to www.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr]
Page5 Map4 The Evidence is Overwhelming!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs are Not Macedonian in the Greek sense of that word...To be Macedonian is to be Greek or derived from Greek Hellenic stock. There are many Greeks today that have lost their Greekness, they go by many other names than the Greek name, nevertheless they all reside in those same places where the ancient Greeks dwelt. The ancient Greek genetic geography, footprint and genetic signature has been Mapped by the worlds leading academic on Genes People and Languages!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs should ReHellenize and return back to the fold, If they want Alexander the Great for their ancestor...The Hellenic element is the Main Ingrediant in real authentic Macedonians. Real Macedonians remain loyal to Hellenism, Proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated in order to expand [Hellenism], the Greek Hellenic Language Knowledge and Culture to the furthestmost points of the then known world.

Anonymous said...

Since FYRoM's inception, modern Greeks have seen their national character ridiculed and their heritage rubbished, every Greek hating man and his dog joined in the bandwagon backing the FYRoM cause. FYRoM's anti-Hellenic crusade attracted Sponsors and Propagandists, near, far and wide, from Nordicists and Afrocentrists to Revisionists and Pseudo-Historians...Modern Greeks endured a barrage and an onslaught of scolding vituperation on their Greekness based on virulently misleading, biased information regarding their genealogy and anthroplogy, designed and developed to distance modern Greeks from their ancestral Hellenic base.

Greeks are by nature very durable people, they have an enduring quality about them, an inherited trait, an easily discernable characteristic passed down from the ancient Hellenes who's dominance and resiliance over lesser peoples cultures enabled theirs to spread then expand to the furthestmost regions of the then known world.

So Modern Greeks can compare their qualities to those of the ancients, modern Greeks can see the comparisons and this empowers them with a sense of continuity above and beyond that of philology. Todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of the Hellenic legacy which Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. No other modern people in the Balkans or on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes than todays modern Greeks.

Todays Greeks have a legal and moral obligation to protect and defend Hellenism...custodians of a legacy so rich in pagentry and regalia and who's heritage and culture is held in such esteem, the history of the Hellenes is still admired and studied at the best universities all over the world.

Anonymous said...

Alexander the Great was the Greek Hellenic King of Macedon, he was not Nordic German or Scanda, he was Greek Hellene because he walked like a Greek and he talked like a Greek. NoN Greeks wanting him for their ancestor...well, they are being rather pretentious aren't they and a tad Silly wouldn't you say, because the Hellenic element is the main Ingrediant in the making of a Greek Hellene.

Alexander the Great was definately a Greek Hellenic King, we know for sure because foreign people told us...from the ancient Persians to the ancient Hebrews and from the ancient Egyptians to the ancient Hindus, they all said it, in fact wherever Alexander went, foreigners hailed him as the Greek Hellenic King of Macedon.

But why do foreigners want him for their ancestor...???

Well, not all foreigners do want him for their ancestor, it is only the SouthSlavs from the ex-Yugoslavia who profess to have developed collective memories and deep emotional feelings for Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, only they call him Aleksandar Veliki...a Proto-Slav, their first Great Czar!

So it becomes obvious where this is going...The distance between Slavs and Alexander the Great can be measured in the hundreds of miles and in the difference between the Satem and Centum branches of the IndoEuropean language tree
but the greatest distance and the most significant is the time dimension...The Slavic Tribes were nowhere near the ancient Greek world of the Hellenistic period, they were far far away. Slavs are distanced from Hellenes:

1...In Philology/Linguistics [[Satem][Centum]]
2...In Geography [[Asian Steppes][Haemus Peninsula]]
3...In Time Dimension [[Justinian A.D.][Hellenistic B.C.]]

Quite how FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs managed to develop these supposed feelings for ancient Greeks is for Slavdom to unravel, modern Greeks are Not to blame for this!

Todays Greeks are the Custodians of the Hellenic legacy, a language and a civilization which is still admired in the modern era, the ancient Greeks and their achievements are still held in high esteem by Europeans and others, it is for this reason modern Greeks shall continue to defend and protect what is theirs by historic and hereditary right.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:From Antiquity and Beyond

Since the forming of the Hellenes, a collection of 230 known
groups tribes and kingdoms bound together in common speech and common genus, who's culture and traditions so resiliant and so dominant...Other, lesser cultures willingly and voluntarily succumbed to Hellenisms superior elements.

Macedonians...Just one of many Greek Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms:
http://my.raex.com/~obsidian/soubalk2.html
The northern verge of Hellas, a relatively less populated area, containing peoples and cultures considered by most Classic Hellenes to be little better than barbarians. Yet, these northerners have contributed some of the most notable features of the Greek historical and mythological landscape. Here will be found the Macedonians and Thracians, the Epirotes and Thessalians. Here also is located Mount Olympus itself.

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people, right from the time they first learned to read and write they actually told us they were Greeks in ways which resonate and are still apparent even up till today, they were Greeks and nothing else...Just Greeks!

About the forming of the Greeks [Hellenes]

The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present. Some of these converts to Hellenicism were inhabitants of Asia Minor, others of Thrace and Byzantium, others of the lands bordering the Black Sea, especially the Crimea.

Into the peninsula of Greece itself, many thousands of Slavs wandered as immigrants during the maximum South Slavic expansion; the Turks brought colonists, including many Albanians, and whole districts of Boeotia and Attica and of other parts of Greece are today Albanian speaking. Romance-speaking shepherds, the Vlachs, have also made the slopes of the Pindus their seasonal pastures. Since the World War many of the Greeks living in Thrace and Asia Minor have been sent to Greek soil to live, while Turks and other Moslems have been in turn repatriated. Despite these attempts at producing ethnic order, much Greek territory, especially in Macedonia, remains ethnically heterogeneous. Furthermore, the number of Greeks who live abroad, be it in Egypt, East Africa, or in the New World, is so great that the Greeks are still almost an international people. Many of the Greeks leave home to make their fortunes on less stony soil, but many of them also return.

It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans, to cite but a single example.
http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-14.htm

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people...Integral to the Greek Hellenic Collective of Peoples. Macedonians are Greek and Nothing Else...Just Greeks!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia...according to FYRoM's rogue scholars, pseudo-historians and specialist propagandists is a place where the primordial Makedonoid were spawned and from them the genesis of the white race of which, the proto-Slavs were the first aryan beings to set foot and inhabit this planet.

The Makedonoid dwelt in the lands of Macedonia, a place where only the sun is older, where only Macedonians could be found and if you were lucky enough to find one, they appeared tall blond and beautiful, typically Slavic and typically aryan.

From the Makedonoid genetic pool sprang the white race, the ancient tribes of the Aegean and of the Haemus peninsula, and of Asia Minor and of Anatolia but it doesn't stop there...from the Makedonoid sprang all the white races from the Balkans in the west all the way to the Japanese sea in the east.

So the various white races actually owe their beginnings, their genesis and their ethno-origins to the Slavs of FYRoM, only they have the right to claim legitimately, custodianship of the Makedonoid legacy, afterall they are the modern heirs and inheritors of the primordial Makedonoid the first aryans on this planet.

Since antiquity, the inhabitants of FYRoM have always called themselves Makedonci and they have always spoken the Makedonski Sloveni language. The Makedonoid have always been Makedonci, right from the start and the very beginning, since time Immemorial!

Only a hardened propagandist or a severely brainwashed Individual would equate FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs to the ancient peoples of Macedonia. Slavdoms rogue scholars pseudo-historians and specialist propagandists have focused on ancient European history and deliberately elected to rubbish the history and heritage of the Greek Hellenic people, they have converted classical history into vulgar pseudo-history and this is unnacceptable to modern Greeks and to classicist scholars and all of these world bodies:

The UN, EU, USA, Nato and World Academia!

For Greeks and the International community...It has become excruciatingly painful having to listen to FYRoM's ethnically engineered Macedonians talking about their SerboBulgarian speaking proto-Slavic Macedonian ancestors.

Slavdoms scholarly elite have an academic responsibility to correct the mistakes of the past, it is their duty, they have a moral obligation to properly Inform and enlighten the Slavic people of FYRoM about their real roots and ethno-origins, about who they really are and where they really come...The Greeks are Not to blame for FYRoM's ethnically engineered, manipulated, Indoctrinated view of themselves, they are Not Macedonians in the Greek sense of that word and it is about time they heard it from a reputable Slavic academic source.

Slavdoms Academia can Not sit on the fence Indefinately, they must commit themselves to their academic vows...the pursuit of all universal knowledge rooted to historical verity.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:So Who Are The Macedonians

Macedonians are northern Greeks...The northernmost Greek Hellenic people, the ones that can trace their history back in backwards compatible fashion to the Balkan Wars from where they emerged victorious and which enabled them to eject the oriental musulman Turk from Macedonian soil, but these Macedonians can trace their history back even further to the Imperial Byzantine Empire, who's Theme of Macedonia had to be relocated to a safe area known today as Bulgaria in order to protect them from barbarian attacks and assaults.

Macedonians are the Greeks who can boast the closest possible connection to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, in geography in language and in kinship, the closest modern people on this planet to the original Macedonians who were an aggressive and turbulent folk of Hellenic stock, responsible for one of the world's great empires, they were just one of the 230 ancient Greek Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms known to academics and classicist scholars.

The ancient Macedonians Inhabited the northern extremity of the Greek Hellenic world. The Greek northern frontier was protected and defended by the ancient Macedonians.

The ancient Macedonians protected Greece from barbarian invasions incursions and attacks, they learned new military skills and they used that military power to take over and Govern Greece as leaders of a unified Nation of Hellenes.

The ancient Macedonians under Alexander the Great unified the fractious Greeks into one unified Nation and then proceeded to expand Hellenism by spreading the Greek language knowledge and culture to the far reaches of the known world, but how do we know all this...we know because it was written down and recorded for posterity, as if the ancient Macedonians knew that one day, far off into the distant future their Greekness might be questioned, so they took out an Insurance policy.....

Wherever the ancient Macedonians went, they left their "Calling Card" carved deep into stones and building blocks of every city the built visited or renamed...Real Macedonians are those Greek people that have remained loyal to Hellenism, Proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's Initiated in order to expand Hellenism, the Greek Hellenic Language, Knowledge and Culture to the furthestmost regions of the then known world.

Anonymous said...

It is a fact that you have no brain... What a waste of time your post is! Get a life!

Anonymous said...

Fakn Turks and TurkoSlavs, they started this blogg posing as white nordics...Fakn Turks!

Turks are Ignorant Abrasive and Arrogant

Just like their Eastern and Asian, Oriental Musulman ancestors!

The Turk was good only in numbers, only when every single Asiatic tribe was along side him did he ever consider facing the Greek!

The Greek was the only European to Fight the Turk eyball to eyeball...I mean, Face to Face!

The Turk still has a collective memory of the Greek staring into his Face in battle!

The Greek waits patiently for next occasion when he shall have the oppertunity to Face the Turk, but this time, Just Mehmetin Turk himself, without the assistance of his Musulman brothers!

The Greek shall Face that Turk in remembrance of the fallen Greeks, the ones that fell facing Mehmetins Musulman hoards!

We owe the Turk!

And I want to finish that business!

Anonymous said...

I've been to Scandanavia (most) and it is quite true, the mongoloid element is there, at least to those of us that can discern it in anthropological terms.

Simply put, some nordic people are white mongols, thats what they are, blond blue eyed white mongols.

Nordics, in simple terms are a blend of Turkics and Germanics where the whiteness and blondism of the Germanics meet the oriental features and characteristics of the Turkic tribes in all their facial spleandour.

Anonymous said...

yeah i get it now, sort of like Genghiz meets Fritz kind of situation

Anonymous said...

The lengths to which these Turkics and Slavics are prepared to go to, in order to badmouth the Greeks is astonishing. I say:

Long live the Greek-Hellenic people...long live Hellas!

The demise of the Greeks is anticipated, more so by the Slavics and the Turkics who between them plot and scheme together in common cause to see the Greeks go down, they anticipate the end of Hellas and the Greek-Hellenic people by 2013...apparently, this is how it is written in their pseudo-scriptures!

The pleasure FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs get at watching Greeks falter is apparent and self evident. I say:

Long live Hellas...long live the Greek-Hellenic people!

Wherever Hellenism goes...Greeks shall Follow

Should Hellenism falter...Greeks shall Amend

If Hellenism Stumbles and Falls...Greeks shall Revive

Evropi is Not Evropi without Hellas...The concept of a Europe is a Greek one!

In the face of adversity the Greeks make a stand, they stare into the face of their impending doom comfortable in the knowledge that change is in the air, the wind of change shall sweep over Hellas...some of that change will undoubtably affect the neighbourhood, for better or for worse, change is coming. I say:

Long live Hellas...Long live the Greek-Hellenic people!

Anonymous said...

When all is said and done...Macedonians remain as Greek as the Spartans.

No Slavist, No Turanid revisionist pseudo-historian can alter that fact...that academic reference point.

Between them...I mean between the Slavist and the Turanid, this union, this alliance against Hellenism has produced a TurkoSlav so Ignorant, so Arrogant and so Abrassive, no amount of Integration into the European family can make the TurkoSlav respect Hellenic Ideals and core values, the foundation stones on which western civilization is based.

Hellenism to the TurkoSlav means little and counts for nothing...for him, I mean the TurkoSlav, his aim in life is to alter European history in order to include the TurkoSlav, to make it more TurkoSlavic, to make ancient Macedonians Slavics and to make ancient Trojans Turkics, this is what that Slavist-Turanid union, that alliance is all about!

Anonymous said...

Greeks have witnessed attempts to assasinate their national character...Greeks have also witnessed attempts to rubbish their national history and Greeks have also witnessed Hellenism, the foundation stone of Western Civilization being denigrated...but who is behind this anti-Hellenic, anti-Western [charade] movement!

Well, this is what we know so far......

Afolabi is an African revisionist Pseudo-Historian!

Mehmetin is a Turanid revisionist Pseudo-Historian!

Goran is a Slavist revisionist Pseudo-Historian!

What do Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran have in Common...easy, they are all extremely anti-Hellenic anti-Western Afro-Turanid-Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians!

Do their Opinions mean anything...No, they don't!

Afolabis opinions mean little and count for Nothing!

Mehmetins opinions mean little and count for Nothing!

Gorans opinions mean little and count for Nothing!

Afro-Blacks Turanid-Mongols and Slavist-TurkoSlavs...want to rewrite the ancient history of Europe in order to take some of it away from the Greeks and Hellenism and instead, give to the Afro-Afolabi and the Turanid-Mehmetin and the Slavist-Goran!

Western Civilization is under attack by Afro-Blacks Turanid-Mongols and Slavist-TurkoSlavs...aided and abetted by western media.

Greeks as always...defend and protect Hellenism, it's time for the West to share in that burdern. The Greek is Proud of his ancestral heritage, he give Nothing to Afolabi Mehmetin or Goran...Instead, the Greek shall squeeze the PiPs out their Afro-Turanid-Slavist Silliness!

Anonymous said...

Martin Bernal...AfroCentrist aka Afolabi!

Mustafa Kemel Ataturk...Turanid aka Mehmetin!

Victor Friedman...Slavist aka Goran!

What do these seemingly unrelated peoples all have in Common ???

Anonymous said...

Blacks Mongols and TurkoSlavs...All Team-up together to denigrate Hellenism, the foundation stone of Western Civilazation!

The realization that Greeks alone should not have to bear that Indignation has finally dawned on some Western Powers...

...Western Civilization owes Hellenism, it's now time for the West to show Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran what the West thinks about Afrocentrists, Turanid and Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians.

Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran beware...You just Pissed-Off the West!

Anonymous said...

As a culture, Hellenism has proven to be dominant and resiliant, just when it appears to be fading away something happens only for it to bounce back...Hellenism, it's Ideals and Core values have been adopted by the West, it is the corner stone and the foundation on which Western civilization is based, but is it under attack and has been for quite some time, systematic and sustained attack in order to bring it down, and if that was to be achieved, Western civilization would also fall, to be replaced with something else...but what would replace Hellenism or Western civilization ???

Afrocentric revisionism accentuated an African origin for the early development of Hellenic enlightenment...Martin Bernal promulgated his assertions in his book entitled Black Athena.

Whether he was aware of it or not, Martin Bernal became responsible for Indoctrinating Black people into a false premise, inticing Black people of African origins into a belief that proto-Greeks were Blacks from Africa. Martin Bernal has since gone on record to extenuate what he started, to lessen the Blackness of his assertion in order to heighten the Egyptian influence on early Hellenic enlightenment.

By doing what he Bernal did especially when he did, smacks of something resembling character assassination tactics. By designating early Hellenic enlightenment to African origins, he not only humiliated the Greeks but also the Egyptians,
because Black Africans hold Bernal to account, his words resonate amongst Black Africans who see the mythical Black Afolabi as being the donor of knowledge wisdom and enlightenment to the early Egyptian civilization which onward transmitted to the Hellenic.

What Martin Bernal started, enabled every Greek hating man and his dog to jump on the Afrocentric bandwagon at a time when Greece was being pressed to accept a road map for the development of energy routs in the Balkan peninsula...Western mind-architects had visions of a fragmented peninsula litterd with little Balkan statelets quarelling over disputes dating back centuries.

Martin Bernal in affiliation with Victor A Friedman, a prominant Slavist, attempt to belittle Hellenism, the foundation stone on which Western civilization is based.

Martin Bernal, Victor A Friedman and prominant Turanid revisionist pseudo-historians ridicule and humiliate Hellenism at every opportunity, and by the virtue of default, Western civilization also, as if there is a concerted effort to replace Hellenism with something else on which global order could be based, in essence expanding the confine to which Western civilization is currently restricted to.

Disolving the resentment other cultures harbour towards the West for the sake of trade and commerce and influence could only come about with the collapse of Hellenism and by virtue of default, the West, in order to fascilitate some perverted mind-architects commercial dreams.

Anonymous said...

Greeks should not have to defend and protect the virtues of Western civilization alone, the West should play it's part too. Hellenism is under attack...Afrocentric propaganda, Turanid propaganda and Slavist propaganda seek to bring down the West by bringing down Hellenism first, the corner stone and the foundation on which Western civilization is based. Greece has been Torched and Flooded with every Afro-Asiatic Musulmanic Tribe known to man, they somehow find their way to Greece by land, sea and air.

If Hellenism falls, so does the West...Western civilization is tinkering on the brink, the sheer weight of extremist Afrocentric, Turanid and Slavist anti-Hellenic propaganda seeks to undermine Western democracy by questioning the very fabric of it's Ideals and Core Values, the very fundamentals on which it is based.

Afolabi, Mehmetin and Goran team-up to denigrate Hellenism, so Greeks are forced to defend and protect their history and their heritage from those perverted distortions which attempt to take from Greeks, elements of their cultural heritage in order to present them to the outside world as something other than Greek...Afrocentrists Turanids and Slavists do this, so I am here to challenge Afolabi, Mehmetin and Goran.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs can not possibly be Macedonian because the element of legacy is missing, nothing from the original Macedonians has been passed on to them...as a SouthSlavic peoples they are not backwards compatible to the original product and I use that word advisedly!!

Like firmware [software] is upgraded to better versions, the latest updated version, must still be compatible, I mean backwards compatible to the original product...legacy!

This analogy could be used to expose FYRoM's distinct lack of affinity to the original product, the legacy element is missing, yet FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs persist in their wanton use of the Macedonian name without having prior or previous adjacency to it!

Like firmware is continuously updated and made better, so to are human beings, I mean, todays version of human beings are better made, more robust, more adaptable and much more knowledgable than previous versions...

...in fact, todays humans can do much much more than any of their predecessors ever could, but still, that legacy element and that backwards compatibility element is still applicable.

In FYRoM's case, there are no legacy elements for them to refer to, and neither can they boast backward compatibility to the original [product] Macedonians, I mean, they are neither ethnic-racial, cultural or linguistically compatible to the original Macedonians, yet they use that name for their new country, their nationality, their language and their ethnicity...how could they usurp a Greek-Hellenic name that can be traced back, in bakward compatible fashion to the original Macedonians of antiquity, who were a Greek speaking Hellenic people!

Todays Greeks are the latest version, the most up to date version of Greek, and in that package are Macedonians along with other add-ons and new features...Todays Greeks are a Licensed Product, the Real deal...

...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not Macedonian, it is not possible for them to get Licensed, they No fit the criteria of backward compatibility to the original product because they are a Fake Product, a Cheap Copy of the original.

Todays Greeks = Legacy Built In, Compatible to the Original Product!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs = No Guarantee! No Return! Fake Product! You get what you paid for type of thing!

Anonymous said...

Human rights and the rights of modern people to self-express as they wish is no longer considered viable or even appropriate, in the face of strong academic arguments favouring the rights of those autochthonous peoples who have been using that Macedonian name on a continuous basis since time immemorial!!!

Macedonians already Exist....They are Greeks.

Logic and common sense dictate that human rights exist for everyone...FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs wanting to Identify themselves as just Macedonians based on supposed feelings for Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, should prepare themselves for disapointment.

FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs declaring themselves as just "Macedeonian" is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have rights also.

FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs must differentiate themselves from Greeks and Hellenism by using a Prefix-Suffix in their New Name...something like Slov-Macedonia or Slav-Macedonia!

The Slov-Slav Interchange is known about, it is in use today, a precedent has already been set by:

1...Slovenia could so easily be called Slavenia. 2...Slovakia could so easily be called Slavakia.

So FYRoM using the argument concerning other Slav countries not being asked to use the word "Slav" in order to Identify themselves is a lie, because the words Slov and Slav are Interchangable.

FYRoM's New Name could be Slov-Macedonia if they do not like Slav-Macedonia!

Etnnicity, Language and Nationality...Greeks No Permit NoN-Greek People to Adopt-Usurp the Greek Regional-Tribal Name of Macedonia in order that FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs could use it for their new country.

Macedonia(n) for Ethnic use, Language use, or Nationality use requires a pre-condition...the user of that name must be Greek or derived from Greeks, it's as simple as that!

Anonymous said...

Afrocentrists Tried It and Failed! Turanids Tried It and Failed! Slavists Tried It and Failed!

Hellenism,the corner stone and the very foundation on which Western Civilization is based remains intact, in fact it remains dominant and resiliant, even after several attempts at burning Greece and flooding Greece with every single Afro-Musulmanic Tribe and Asiatic-Musulmanic Tribe known to mankind.

Hellenism remains upstanding and fighting back.

Greeks should not have to do that alone...Western Civilization owes Greeks the very fabric of their being.

I say fight back...Fight Afrocentrists Turanids and Slavists, Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran live with us in the West but denigrate it's Ideals and core Values.

Time to defend and protect Hellenism, the corner stone and the very foundation on which Western Civilization is based...If Greece keels over, so does the West!

ΙΩΝ said...

WTF???? indo-europeans? Are you guys belive this propaganda? Indo-europeans never existed.

Anonymous said...

The message is clear...Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people. Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran must simply stomach this fact, this academic reference point and carry on with their respective African, Turkic and Slavic existence. Afrocentrists Turanids and Slavists fought Hellenism and Hellenism Won!

Greece is situated in a part of the world which spawned Hellenism, yet in modern times is surrounded by Turkic and Slavic countries who, for them...Hellenism means little and counts for nothing!

African Afolabis, Turanid Mehmetins and Slavist Gorans think their opinions count or mean something...they don't, Africans, Turkics and Slavics can think what they like, the West No Care what these three anti-Hellenic, anti-Western revisionist pseudo-historians think!

I say...Keep Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran OUT!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people, this is a fact, a reference point which has served the International academic community well.

1...Afrocentrists confuse Afolabi Africans with their revisionism and pseudo-history...as If Africans had anything to do with ancient Greeks or the early development of Hellenism.

2...Turanids confuse Mehmetin Turkics with their revisionism and pseudo-history...as If Turkics had anything to do with ancient Greeks or the early develoment of Hellenism.

3...Slavists confuse Goran Slavics with their revisionism and pseudo-history...as If Slavics had anything to do with ancient Greeks or the early development of Hellenism.

Africans, Turks and Slavs attempt to denigrate Hellenism...they have started something deep and it shall bite them in a bad way. Western Civilization in general and Western Europe in particular have only now realized the Value of Hellenism, the very fabric of their being and the basis on which Western Civilization continues...Hellenism is the West's adopted culture of choice. Hellenism for the West is worth keeping, I mean protecting and defending.

...What the Africans have to Offer the West Reject!

...What the Turanids have to Offer the West Reject!

...What the Slavists have to Offer the West Reject!

Hellenism is a culture way of life which has endured for Millenia, the West shall defend and protect it...Come Hell or High Water!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:Hellenism and Western Civilization

Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic Indoctrinated SouthSlavs...thats what they are, I mean FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs prefer the revisionism and the pseudo-history of the Afrocentrists and of the Turanids and ofcourse their own, home-grown Slavist revisionism and pseudo-history to the long established mainstream historical record.

TurkoSlavic Afrocentrists denigrate Hellenism in the full gaze of the International academic community...taking from the Greeks, elements of their Hellenic cultural heritage and trying to pass it off as either African Turkic or Slavic.

Shameless Afolabi Mehmeto-Goranic Indoctrinated TurkoSlavic Afrocentrists!

I say...keep them OUT!

Anonymous said...

Without Hellenism there would be No supranational culture common to Western Civilization...just Afrocentric Turanid and Slavist Theories Ideas and Conjectures where Africans Turkish and Slavists compete for a slice of the ancients heritage.

The African Afrocentrists see elements of themselves in ancient Greeks...for them, I mean the Afrocentrists, the Greeks had African origins so Afolabi the African Afrocentist denigrates Hellenism in his African Afrocentric sort of way.

The Turkic Turanids see elements of themselves in ancient Greeks...for them, I mean the Turanids, the Greeks had Turan origins so Mehmetin the Turanid denigrates Hellenism in his Turkic Turanid sort of way.

The Slavic Slavists see elements of themselves in
ancient Greeks...for them, I mean the Slavists, the Greeks had Slavic origins so Goran the Slavist denigrates Hellenism in his Slavist sort of way.

Shameless Africans Turkics and Slavics...

What do Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran have to do with ancient Greeks and Hellenism...Shameless little Gits!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs call themselves Macedonians but that is inconsistant and incompatible with what is known about them...I mean, the original Macedonians were recorded as a Greek-Hellenic people.

FYRoM's use of that Macedonian name flies in the face of historical verity...they are Not Greeks, so they can not possibly be Macedonians, at least not in the Greek sense of that word.

To be Macedonian, I mean, to be an authentic Macedonian, one has to be of Greek-Hellenic stock or at least be derived from them.

Greeks No take kindly to foreign people taking elements from their Hellenic cultural heritage and presenting them to the outside world as their own. Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity belong to Hellenism and the Greeks...Not to Slavdom and the Slavs.

Afrocentrists, Turanids and Slavists have all but brainwashed their own respective peoples into revisionism and pseudo-history, (i) Africans (ii) Turks and (iii) Slavs
are walking around today with the Idea that Greeks dont exist, they expired a long time ago, but If that were true, how does it detract from the facts and the academic reference points that the original Macedonians were Greeks to begin with. Alexander the Great would still be Greek if there were No Greeks around today to claim his legacy. I mean, history has recorded it that way, right!

If there were No Greeks around today, historians would still have placed Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity into the Greek Hellenic domain.

Interpretations of ancient text make it clear that ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greek. As soon as they were able to express themselves, they told us in their writings they were Greeks. The original Macedonians spoke of their Greeksness in oral form and in written form...in their own Macedonian language which was a Greek-Hellenic language, an IndoEuropean language belonging to the Centum group of IndoEuropean languages.

Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity however, were not refined Greeks, they were rough and ready Greeks, frontier Greeks, unrefined Northerners.

Southern Greeks sometimes considered them "barbarian" in the ancient Greek sense of that word meaning unintelligible speech, they spoke a different dialect of Greek which made Macedonians sound a tad different in comparison to the quintessential Athenian Greek standard.

It must be said...If there were No Greeks around today, Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity would still have been recorded as Greek-Hellenic people in the annals of our common European history book.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are precisely that...SouthSlavs beyond a shadow of a doubt, they are Not Macedonians, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Canadian diaspora numbers aproximately 35k and the Australian diaspora approximately 85k...they did alot of damage considering their small number abroad. They were left to wallow in their own nostalgia within the confines of their own communities but nothing they said or did was referenced to long established facts and academic reference points.

Their influence in formulating FYRoM's historical narrative played only a small role overall, most of the revisionist pseudo-history elements were already there, outside the FYRoM kernal and more into the shell of what was once Yugoslavia, it appears to have been quite pervasive throughout the Slavic speaking Balkans at variant degrees of fervid obstinacy.

FYRoM's Canadian Slavs and FYRoM's Australian Slavs took with them, Balkan baggage which Canada and Australia evidently, have been unsuucessful in filtering-flushing out.

FYRoM's Slavs abroad live inside Western Anglo-Saxon countries...These Western countries base their Civilization on Hellenic Ideals and Core Values, they adopted Hellenism for the own culture of choice which must be very uncomfortable for a SouthSlav Indoctrinated into revisionism and pseudo-history!!

Anonymous said...

New Turkistanis are being bred for purpose...to spread Turanid revisionism into Europe. The first country in Europe to adopt this New Turkistani doctrine is FYRoM!

FYRoM willingly and voluntarily absorbs Turanid culture, themes and synergies which they adopt as their own.

Mehmeto-Goranic culture has also been adopted by the Afolabis of Africa...In the world today, we have witnessed Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic culture taking root...a New civilization being formed in it's early development, soon to compete with the long established Western one!

Anonymous said...

The ancient Greeks were accredited with laying down the corner-stone and the ground-work on which Western civilization is based.

Hellenism, it's Ideals and Core Values have been adopted by the West willingly and voluntarily but what are these Hellenic Ideals and Core Values...Humanism, Idealism and Rationalism were important factors for ancient Greeks but there are more:

1...Freedom
2...Democracy
3...Indivisualism
4...Self-Reliance
5...Seeking, being guided by Truth
6...Seeking, Ideal perfect beauty
7...Ethics and Standards
8...Education in all academic disciplines

Western Europeans see elements of themselves in ancient Greeks, that is why the concept of being descended from them is such a powerful one.

Modern Greeks, when compared to the ancient Greeks are found lacking, but then I ask myself, who in the modern age can compare with them...Germans, Slavs, Celts, who!

From since the forming of the modern Hellenic Nation State, the Greeks have yet to celebrate their bi-centinnial. In less than 200 years the modern Greek-Hellenic nation has Warred approximately every second generation since their Independence from the Ottoman Turkish Empire...I say the modern Greeks have achieved plenty given the circumstances and the geography in which they find themselves.

Greece, The Hellenic Republic is situated in a region of the world which spawned Hellenism, the corner-stone and the foundation on which Wstern Civilization is based, but here, in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula, Hellenism means little for them and counts for nothing. The region has become predominantly Turkic and Slavic in character and amongst these peoples the modern Greeks struggle to survive.

Turkics and Slavics have formed a partnership-alliance against Hellenism, we have witnessed the denigration of Hellenism by Turanids and by Slavists, both of them using common themes and synergies in their extremist anti-Hellenic and by the virtue of default, anti-Western propaganda.

Take away the culture, the Ideals and the core values Western Civilization is based on and what do we have left, what replaces it!

The Greeks alone should not have to bear the burden of defending Hellenism against extremist Turanid-Slavist propaganda, where both Mehmeto-Goranic Induced Individuals seek to undermine Western Civilization by bringing down the Greeks first...If Greece keels over, so does the West, in cultural terms I mean. Yes, modern Greeks do not compare with the ancient Greeks but we are still the closest living, walking talking modern humans to them...small in number, we shall continue to defend and protect what is ours, our heritage, our history.

Anonymous said...

Real Macedonians Preserve Hellenism.

Real Macedonians are the ones who remained loyal to Hellenism, proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated to expand [Hellenism] the Greek-Hellenic language, knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known world.

Real Macedonians preserve Hellenism, in fact, they have always defended and protected the Greek world from outsider barbarian incursions and invasions.

The ancient Macedonians were just one of >230 known Greek-Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms.

The ancient Macedonians belong to the Hellenic collective of peoples, the Greek family of Nations.

The ancient Macedonians were at the northern extremity of the Greek world. The Greek northern frontier was defended by them and protected by them.

The ancient Macedonians protected Greece and Hellenism from barbarian invasions and attacks, and by doing so they learned new military skills which they later used in order to take over and Govern Greece as one unified Nation of Hellenes.

Ancient Macedonians under Alexander the Great unified the fractious Greeks into one Nation and then proceeded to spread the Greek-Hellenic language knowledge and culture to the far reaches of the then known world.

How do we know all this...it was written down and recorded for posterity on Alexander the Greats orders, as if he knew that one day, far off into the future the Macedonians Greekness might be questioned, so he took out an Insurance policy.

Wherever the ancient Macedonians went, they left their "Calling Card" Carved deep into the building blocks of every City they built visited or renamed...but why did Alexander the Great do this ?

Simple...He wanted the world to see his and the ancient Macedonians Greekness.

Real Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people...No Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic Induced SouthSlav can alter this fact, this academic reference point!

Anonymous said...

Todays Greeks claim quite legitimately, custodial responsibility for the ancient Hellenic legacy which does include Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. The Hellenic Republic is the successor state to the old Byzantine Empire which makes modern Greeks heirs and Inheritors of their legacy, their history and their heritage...and through them, in backwards compatible well documented fashion, back to the ancient Hellenes.

1...Todays Greeks get their heritage from the Byzantine Greeks.

2...The Byzantine Greeks get their heritage from the Hellenes.

3...The Hellenes get their heritage from the Mycenean Greeks.

Three heritages...linking modern Greeks to previous Greeks in backwards compatible, well documented fashion. We want our neighbours to realize and recognize this, and to acknowledge they live in a region of the world which spawned Hellenism. It is this culture, Hellenic Ideals and core values which form the basis of Western civilization.

Anonymous said...

Without Western refinements to Hellenisms Ideals and Core Values...What else is there ???

Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic culture maybe!

The sheer thought of having to live in a world which adopted the Ideals and Core Values of the Afrocentrists, Turanids and Slavists makes me want to Vomit!

Any Ideology that can take the Classics and convert them into something African, something Turkic and something Slavic is just way to Vulgar to contemplate!

Anonymous said...

To say Macedonians are not Greeks is like saying:

1...Afolabi is not African

2...Mehmetin is not Turkic

3...Goran is not Slavic

Afrocentric, Turanid and Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians started something Toxic...

...They took something good like the Classics and coverted them into something Afro, something Turkic and something Slavic...They converted the Classics into something Vulgar!

They Mock Western culture by attacking Hellenism, the bedrock and the foundation on which Western civilization is based.

Afolabi, Mehmetin and Goran have No Idea what they started!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people.

Anonymous said...

Every Tom Dick and Harry knows that Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people. It is only the Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans that dont!

Anonymous said...

Real Macedonians are the Macedonians that remained loyal to Hellenism, proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated to expand [Hellenism] the Greek-Hellenic language, knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known world.

Macedonians are the Greeks from Northern Greece who trace their ethnogenic, cultural-linguistic ancestors back to Theme-Macedonia, and before that, to Macedonia-Prima, and before that, to the biblical Macedonians, and before them, to the classical-Macedonians from antiquity.

Modern-Greeks connect back to previous-Greeks in perfect, backwards compatible cultural-linguistic fashion, without clash and without conflict.

Todays Greeks claim quite legitimately, custodial responsibility for the ancient-Hellenic legacy which does include Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

The Hellenic Republic is the successor state to the old Byzantine Empire which makes modern-Greeks heirs and Inheritors of the Byzantine legacy, their history and their heritage...through them and in perfect backwards-compatible well-documented fashion, back to the ancient-Hellenes.

FYRoM's Slavist-Indoctrinated ex-Yugoslavs, teamed-up with
some Turanid-Indoctrinated Turkics to Rubbish the modern-Greeks, in the expectation they could justify their presence in the Haemus peninsula as being somewhat indigenous and native Turkics and Slavics, in a region of the world steeped in Greek history.

After 21 years of FYRoM's existence...What have they really achieved. Viewed by Europeans as the most Afrocentric-Induced, Turanid-Influenced, Slavist-Indoctrinated country in Europe, an extension of Turkey in Europe!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Slavic speaking population can trace their history back to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, set-up in 1945 in what was then, the Yugoslav Federation...before that, they could be traced back to the Vardar region of South-Serbia which was still within the Yugoslav Federation, and before that, to Serbia proper, where they were known as just Southern Serbs.

Before this juncture, FYRoM's Slavic speaking population can be traced back to the Ottoman Turkish Empire and before that, to the Byzantine Greco-Roman Empire...before that, to the Serbian Kingdom of Stephan Dusan and before that, to the Bulgarian Empire.

Before this juncture, FYRoM's Slavic speaking population could be traced back the settlements of the Slavic tribes in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula during the 6th Century AD.

It could be argued that FYRoM's Slavic speaking population could trace remnants of their history further back, back to the Avaro-Hunnic Incursions of the Greco-Roman world. Slav Overlords, who along with the Bulgars ushered in waves of Slavic tribes into the Byzantine Empire.

It could also be argued that FYRoM's Slavic speaking population could trace remnants of their history even further back, back to the Greco-Romans who intermingled, and possibly cross-fertilized with the Avaro-Hunnic, Bulgaro-Slavic newcomers.

It could also be argued that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Macedonians...but that argument does not hold-up to what we know about them through the mainstream historical record.

Clearly, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonian they think they are or were told they are!

Macedonians...YES, but only in the regional sense, courtesy of their Avaro-Hunnic, Bulgaro-Slavic ancestral forebears having settled a geographic-region in the Haemus named Macedonia II Secunda by the latin-Romans.

Macedonians...YES, but not in the Greek sense of that word.

Macedonians...YES, but not in the ethnic-racial sense, nor in the national sense, and neither in the cultural-linguistic sense.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs use a regional-geographic Identity for all the wrong reasons...those reasons offend Greece and the Greek-Hellenic peoples because the Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain and Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians are Northern-Greeks...only fools, simpletons and Makedonist Indoctrinated South-Slavs deny it, dispute it and contest it, in the face of massive quantities of accumulated Overwhelming evidence.

Only fools and severely brainwashed South-Slavs attempt to blur the distinction between Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks.

Only hardened propagandists dare to equate Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity to the Slavonic race.

Macedonians are Greeks, they have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia...with credentials like this, only foolish simpletons Indoctrinated on Makedonism say otherwise, testament to the brainwashing skills of their Slavist teachers.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs using the Macedonian name to describe themselves, their country, their nationality language and ethnicity is problematic and confusing...Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have been using that regional-tribal name from since Millenia.

What rights do the Slavs of FYRoM have to rubbish this!

The right to self-determination does not transcend the rights of other peoples...FYRoM does not have right to usurp the Macedonian name on the basis it was never theirs to begin with!

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place, then our South-Slavic neighbours should respect that!

Anonymous said...

Greeks cannot permit Makedonist Indoctrinated South-Slavs to rubbish Greek-history, denigrate Hellenism or generally belittle, badmouth Greeks on the Internet. Slavist Makedonists from FYRoM along with their Turanid-Turkic partners got together to badmouth Greeks, to assassinate the Greek National-Character as best and as often as they possibly could.

Before 1991...The Greek National-Character was that of a typical Mediterenean, a Southern-European, a family orientated religious God-fearing Orthodox-Christian, with a flare for business and entrepreneurial acumen.

After 1991...When FYRoM entered onto the world stage, the Greek National-Character was attacked 24/7 to make the Greek look or appear like a lazy cheating Southern-European. The modern-Greek National Character assassinated at every given opportunity, but little did FYRoM and it's Western and Turkic backers, sponsors, supporters know, that the Greek Character having formed over millenia, can be summarized as being multi-faceted. Most people would firstly consider Greeks as Mediterenean peoples, but there is more...

1...Mediterenean: Greeks could be clustered together with Southern-Europeans, Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the French within the context of a greater Greco-Roman civilization.

2...Western European: Since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization. Some Western Europeans actually see themselves in ancient-Greeks.

3...Eastern European: Since Byzantine-Greeks baptized christianized and civilized the Slavic tribes into the Greek-Orthodox Christendom.

4...Middle-Eastern: Since the Greek expansion and colonization eastwards, ensured prolonged ties with oriental eastern cultures.

5...Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this term, Greeks prefer Southeastern-European instead, anyway, a Balkan Identity exists, similar to that of Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians and Western-Turks exists. There are discernible common elements, contributions from the Byzantine Eastern-Roman Empire and from the Ottoman Empire, contributions which bear testament to shared tradition attributes and mannerisms.

Greeks have always been a sea-faring International Peoples from since millenia.

The Greek Character is Multifaceted, drawing in, embedded experiances from 5 different geographical locations.

The Greeks were never restricted to just one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border's in ancient times.

Greeks during antiquity could be visualized as stretching from Iberia in the West to the Crimea in the East...and beyond.

There was never a country called Greece in ancient times, instead, there were many-Greeks inhabiting Many regions...from Iberia to the Crimea.

Lest we forget: From the river Iber in the West to the river Evros in the East, that space in between in a Greek concept...Evropi!

Can FYRoM really Rubbish This!

Anonymous said...

Something very Morbid in wanting to take the name of an ancient-peoples in order to apply it to your tribe, in the ethnic and racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense knowing full well and in advance that you are causing consternations with the living relatives that still use that name for Identity...Certainly, it is not a natural thing to do, I mean ofcourse to usurp the name of another peoples and then attempt to convince the outside world that you are the one more deserved of that name on the basis it applies to your language and to your country.

Something very Morbid in wanting to rewrite the history and the heritage of another-peoples in order to claim their legacy as yours, knowing full well and in advance that it is a legacy to which you have No real, earthly or natural connections to...Certainly, it is not a natural thing to do, I mean ofcourse to usurp their name, their history and their heritage on the basis it is a human-right to self-Identify the way you want, the way you feel and the way you see fit.

Something very Morbid in telling the world that you feel Macedonian on the basis, you have developed ethnic-feelings and collective memories for Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity knowing full well and in advance that those ancient-peoples were a Greek-speaking Hellenic peoples, whilst your ancestors were known to be Slavic-speakers from far away lands.

Something very Morbid in wanting to convince the outside world that you are Macedonian on the basis, your language is called Macedonian-language and your country is called Republic of Macedonia, therefore, on this alone, it gives you entitlements and rights to claim the history, the heritage and the legacy of Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity when it is known...you are Not one of these!

Something very Morbid...in wanting to convince yourself that you connect to ancient-peoples from a different ethnic and racial backround to your own, who's culture, Ideals and core values formed the bedrock and the foundation of Western civilisation.

Something very Morbid about that, because the very peoples you want to impress with your fabricated Macedonian-Identity already apply that Identity to Greeks in the regional-geographic context.

Macedonians are Greeks...Northern-Greeks Not Southern-Slavs.

Anonymous said...

Modern-day greeks are mongrels. They are not white like the macedonians or the Ancient Greeks at all.

1/3rd of the population consists of outright non-white pontian imports from Anatolia. Cypriots are not even white at all, either, as they are genetically related to the Lebanese. They are basically Hellenized eteocypriots and the Pontians are just Hellenized Middle Eastern anatolians.

They are basically a mix of Albanian Orthodox Christians (the founders of the Greek independence movement were all albanians) and Anatolian Middle Easterners (Pontians). The remaining white greeks are mainly macedonians.

White is not simply a complexion, it is a race that consists of a set of features. So, for example, many darker British people (like Russell Brand, Sean Connery, etc) look like Spaniards. Real White Mediterraneans simply look like darker nords.
So, Iberians, Northern Italians, Romans, Southern French and most balkaners are considered white as they have white facial features.

The leader of the Golden Dawn looks like a Turk. He is clearly of Middle Eastern ancestry. One can easily tell by facial features and body type. He could even be a Palestinian.

Pontians have hooked noses instead of sharp pointy noses like normal europeans since they are mixed with middle easterners. They also tend to have bushier crooked eyebrows instead of sharp eyebrows and many so-called Greeks even have very curly hair.

The Ancient Greeks were not nords, no, but they were white Mediterraneans. The irony is that modern-day macedonians and bulgarians (who are largely descendants of the thracians mixed with slavs) are probably genetically closer to the ancient greeks than modern greeks are. It explains why they are whiter too.


By the way, Hellenism was a pagan concept. It has never had anything to do with Christianity let alone the Greek Orthodox sect. Real Hellenism died out after Theodosius.

The only hellenes left are albanian and middle eastern pontian fakers, unfortunately.

Anonymous said...

TurkoSlavoMongol Monkey!

Turkistani - TurkoSlavic Abdul-Monkey!

Yellow Abdul-Monkey!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Slavs have been raised on Turkocentric - Afrocentric
- Slavist oriented revisionism and pseudo-history.

FYRoM's Slavist orientated pseudo-historians took something good like the classics and Rubbished them...converted them into something Vulgar

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans are Not White!

More Turanid Yellow!

TurkoSlavoMongols!

Yugoslavic - TurkoSlavic Abdul-Monkeys

Anonymous said...

Greeks wouldn’t mind so much if the citizens of FYRoM claimed that they too also descend from Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...but veered, branched-off from the main Hellenic core during the Slavic incursions
of the 6th Century AD.

Greeks wouldn't mind so much if the citizens of FYRoM claimed that they were Slavic-speaking Macedonians on the basis, their Hellenic forebears had to Slavicize [[by force][by free will]] during the settlement of the Slavic-tribes deep into Imperial Byzantine territories.

Greeks wouldn't mind so much if FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs placed themselves on an equilibrium with Greeks and staked a claim to the legacy of Alexander the Great on the basis of their Hellenic-heritage.

In reality, the Slavs of FYRoM have No Greek in them at all...they hate Greeks with a passion and hate Hellenism even more...on par with hating the West for creating the Greeks in the first place.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are a peoples bred for purpose, Indoctrinated on Makedonism...a Slavist based Ideology developed during the Communist years to take Macedonian-territory away from the Greeks in order to place it into Slavic-hands

Anonymous said...

That a small Slavic statelet like FYRoM endeavours to acquire for usurpation, a Greek-Hellenic name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes, the Greeks find perplexing. There is something sinister in wanting to take another peoples name for your name, and when FYRoM pushes to have their Nationality-status, Ethnicity-status and Linguistic-status classified as Macedonian...the Greeks take offense, they see it as a direct threat to the existance of the Nation state of Hellas.

If this configuration were ever to be legitimized:

1 - Country-Name........Macedonian
2 - Nationality.........Macedonian
3 - Ethnicity...........Macedonian
4 - Language............Macedonian

Greeks would riot. Macedonia for Greece constitutes a large part of the country's Northern geographical-territory. The Greeks would lose in an instant, one of their ancient and archaic, regional-tribal names where more than 2.5 Million Greeks self-Identify as Macedonians in the regional sense.

Nationality follows the country-name, whilst ethnicity follows the language-name, FYRoM fights for this. Proxy - FYRoM fights to obtain these Identity factors in order to take Macedonia away from the Greeks.

Sinister moves. Slavist philologists gave them a language and name it Macedonian-language in 1944. Communists gave them a country and named it "Peoples Republic of Macedonia" in 1945 which became a Socialist Republic in 1946. These actions were hostile actions directed at Greece.

Looking back: Something was not right in naming a Serbo-Bulgarian language to Macedonian-language...when it is known that Macedonians are a regional-historic population group of ethnic-Greeks. Linguists and Philologists of today are the first to admit that FYRoM's language was in-fact Misnamed to Macedonian-language for political reasons in 1944, nothing more!

The Serbo-Bulgarian language that is spoken today by the Slavs of FYRoM has no ethnic relatedness to the Hellenic language that was spoken in antiquity by Alexander the Great but the children - pupils -students there believe it to be the one and same language!

Linguists - Philologists - Demographers - Ethnogenists - Historians: All of them support Greece in it's fight to defend - protect it's National-history, heritage and cultural-inheritance from FYRoM's callous state sponsored diaspora-driven anti-Hellenic propaganda.

Anonymous said...

The Greek leader Samaras looks tall and white.

The Former Yugoslav leader Guevski looks short with greasy black hair and moles on his face.

I'd say the Greeks are white and Mediterenean.

Fyrom Yugoslavs are short bow-legged Pakistani looking Turko-Mongols.

Why put Fyroms TurkoMongols in white catagory.

Anonymous said...

Dorians by origin and by blood, by speech and by genus, the main Identity-factor applicable to the Macedonians of lore was the Hellenic one. The Slavic-peoples of FYRoM must be encouraged to learn that the ancient-Macedonians did belong to term Hellenic, in all of it's meanings, and that no other Identity-term can be applicable them - not the Illyrian one, and certainly not the Thracian one, on the basis: Macedonians are the Greeks that Hellenized the Thracian-tribes. The Epirot-Illyrian origins of Alexanders mother were as Hellenic on an equilibrium with his fathers paternal side.

It must be stressed...The Macedonians of lore did belong to the Hellenic world and culture - to assign them a different Identity would be a travesty of what was writen about them in the mainstream historical narrative.

De-Hellenizing the Macedonians of lore and distancing modern-Greeks from them is what FYRoM does in it's learning institutions. Schools colleges and universities in that country are forbidden to use the Hellenic-term directly next to the Macedonian one...the two are kept seperate so that the children, pupils and students there do not make the connection between Macedonians and Hellenism.

FYRoM has used the country's state-apparatus to control what can and cannot be taught there. FYRoM has used state-sponsored propaganda directly, in it's classrooms and learning-institutions to promulgate the Idea that the Rosetta stone middle text inscriptions reveal the long-lost language of the ancient-Macedonians before they adopted koine, the lingua-franca as they call it. For the rest of the learned-world - the Rosetta stone middle text inscriptions were demotic Egyptian, but in FYRoM, they were coerced to learn something different.

The Macedonians of lore were as Hellenic as the Spartans of lore - Dorians to the core...Greeks by origin and by blood, by speech and by genus.

Should FYRoM be granted permission to rubbish this...and if they try - should the Greeks let them!

Anonymous said...

How bright does one need to be to dismiss out of hand - the Idea that Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity were Slavic speakers from FYRoM.

How much Intellectually endowed does one have to get, to figure out that FYRoM's claims to a Macedonian Identity are completely bogus, unfounded without basis and without foundation.

How smart does one have to be, to figure out Alexander the Great was the Greek king of Macedon - a cursory look at any one of the many On-line Encyclopaedias, reveal that simple historical fact. How knowledgeable does one have to be, to figure out that FYRoM's claim to a Macedonian-Identity is misguided, completely erroneous, not rooted in historical verity. How learned does one have to get, to fathom out that a nation of Macedonians outside of Hellenism has never ever existed in historical verity.

How much Intelligence does one need, to connect Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity to Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. At what stage during the educational process does it become common-knowledge - linking Macedonians with Hellenism.

How much education does one need to attain a level of knowledge considered adequate, to connect ancient-Macedonians with the rest of the Greeks.

How much Information do FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs need before it dawns on them that Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-people.

How much schooling does one need, to link FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs with Serbian and Bulgarian South-Slavs. At what level of enlightenment does one need to reach, to figure out that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonians they think they are or told they are!

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. Only hardened propagandists or severely brainwashed Individuals equate Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity with Serbian and Bulgarian South-Slavs from FYRoM.

Anonymous said...

True White people are the Albino types - If we refer to white people as Caucasian, then Greeks are just as white as any other but If we base Whiteness solely on skin colour, then that would make Albino people the only true whites as the majority of European people are not actually white, but a blend of olive and off-white...that said, the Whiteness of a Germanic or a Celtic or a Slavic, means what exactly ???

The Germanics were forest dwellers, wallowing knee deep in forest mud - the Celts an earthy peoples also, and the Slavs...well what of the Slavs! Each of these so called White races showed themselves to be inferior to the civilized peoples of the Mediterenean.

Lets not forget the Hellenics gave us the word Evropi - A Europe without Greek-Hellenic peoples in it is not Europe at all, rather a place where a conglomorate patch-work alliance, descendents of forest dwellers, earthy peoples and Slavs live in splendid isolation. Evidently, these races do not mix easily with each other...in fact, they cannot stand the sight of each-other!

Whiteness eh!- I look at Greco-Roman peoples and see a brightness, a certain beauty to behold. I look at Germanics Celtics and Slavics...a Whiteness so dull, it pales in comparison to the Greco-Roman Peoples!

Greeks are Mediterenean peoples first and foremost - different to Germanics - Celtics - Slavics...Proudly different and confident in the knowledge that it was the Hellenic race that set the standard.

Anonymous said...

At all of these levels, geographically, linguistically, historically and culturally - todays Greeks can boast to be the closest related modern-peoples to the ancient ones. The connections transcend biological fraternal ties which bind them to their ancestors. They are as closely related to the ancient-Macedonians as they are to the ancient-Athenians, ancient-Spartans, Corinthians, Thessalians, Ionians and the whole list of Hellenic tribes that constituted the ancient-Hellenic world from antiquity. The path of least resistance flows through the modern Greeks - no other peoples in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula can boast what the Greeks boast.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs embarrass themselves when they tell the world they are more Macedonian than the Greeks...they embarrass Slavdom also, and insult the Greeks and Hellenism in the process.

The Macedonian-name is older than FYRoM's Slavic ancestors arrival to the region. Slavs were newcomers to Macedonia, arriving there at the top-end of the 6th Century AD, almost a millennium after the death of Alexander the Great. Any newcomer that settles an already inhabited region has no relatedness to the pre-existing population there. FYRoM's Slavic ancestors cross-fertilizing [[by force][free will]] with the local population there would still only make them partially-Greek, with partial-Greek rights to their legacy history and heritage.

Slavdom should pull FYRoM to one side and explain to them with whom they are dealing - Hellenism has endured in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula for more than 3 Millenniums. Greek-Hellenic culture has endured Persian excruciations, Celtic invasions, Roman occupation, Hunnic barbarity, Ostro-Gothic treachery, Slavic settlement, Pope inspired crusades, Catholic betrayal and Turkish domination spanning a time continuum of more than 1000 years...Greeks survived to tell the tale. Greeks preserved Hellenism, the Hellenic language and culture into the modern era.

If the Slavs of FYRoM think they can take something from Hellenism, something which never belonged to them in the first place, then truly, they do not know with whom they are dealing.

Greeks reserve the right to defend and protect what is theirs by birthright. Greeks shall defend Hellenism in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks shall protect Hellenism, a culture and a way of life that has endured for more than 3 Millenniums.

Long live Hellas, long live the Greek-Hellenic peoples.

Anonymous said...

The region where FYRoM is located right now is a place that used to be called Paoenia back in ancient times. To the north of Paeonia lay Dardania. These lands were annexed and incorporated into a much larger extended-Macedonia by the latin-Romans, for administrative purposes - Paeonia and Dardania were never part of the original ancient-Kingdom of Macedon. FYRoM's attempt to establish itself as a new Slavic country
called Macedonia, clashes and conflicts with the geography and the demographic history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

If FYRoM was ever to be permitted to appropriate and assume total usurpation of the Macedonian name for their new country, nationality, language and ethnicity on an exclusive basis...the Greeks would automatically lose in an instant and at a stroke, something primordially Hellenic - a good causal reason for the Greeks to take-up arms, to fetch back to Hellenism something that was given without their permission.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and those who attempt to establish it as such have the Greeks to contend with.

Long Live Hellas - My Country, My Nation, My Family, My Honour, My Pride...Make Me Proud!